Lincoln Discussion Symposium

The Washington Post Sept. 9, 2022 story with the headline "Charles III is the third King Charles. The first two had a pretty hard time" reads as follows:

Shortly after the death Thursday of Queen Elizabeth II, a royal announcement said her heir, her eldest son Charles, would be known as King Charles III. He spoke as monarch for the first time Friday, echoing his mother’s pledge to serve the United Kingdom and “uphold the constitutional principles at the heart of our nation.”

King Charles III ascends to throne and spoke to the nation for the first time as monarch.

There had been speculation for years that Charles might choose a different name (he could have chosen any of his four names — Charles, Philip, Arthur or George — according to the BBC) if and when he took the throne.

So who were the first two British monarchs named King Charles? Well, they had a bit of a hard time.

One was caught up in a civil war and beheaded; the other spent the first decade of his reign in exile.

President Lincoln made reference to Charles I in the Hampton Roads Conference.

Doris Kearns wrote of the Conference in her book Team of Rivals at pages 692-693 and the specific reference President Lincoln made to Charles I:

The four-hour meeting, known as the Hampton Road Conference, took place [on Monday, January 30, 1865] in the saloon of the River Queen. . . . In reply to the question posed by Stephens, Lincoln attested that "there was but one way that he knew of, and that was, for those who were resisting the laws of the Union to cease that resistance." Stephens countered with the hope for a temporary solution that would integrate their respective armies to fight the French "until the passions on both sides might cool."

"I suppose you refer to something Mr. Blair has said," Lincoln replied. "Now it is proper to state at the beginning, that whatever he said was of his own accord. . . . The restoration of the Union is a sine qua non with me." There could be no substantive talk of an armistice or postponement until "the resistance ceased and the National Authority was recognized." Attempting to circumvent this declaration, [former U. S. Senator] Hunter recalled that Charles I of England had entered repeatedly into arrangements with his adversaries despite ongoing hostilities. "I do not profess to be posted in history," Lincoln answered. "On all such matters I will turn you over to Seward. All I distinctly recollect about the case of Charles I, is, that he lost his head in the end."

Excellent post David.

(09-13-2022 07:49 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: [ -> ]Excellent post David.

Thanks. Hearing President Lincoln speaking French and being the perfect response.

(09-12-2022 03:00 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote: [ -> ]"I do not profess to be posted in history," Lincoln answered. "On all such matters I will turn you over to Seward. All I distinctly recollect about the case of Charles I, is, that he lost his head in the end."

To get a brief summary of Charles I, Wikipedia has a good entry on him and the trouble he got himself into
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_England
To make a long story short read the first three paragraphs.

And this reminds me of a song - Adam and Eve
(the first words to the song)

Here are the lyrics to the song and a little background information from the web site "Mainly Norfolk: English Folk and Other Good Music"
https://mainlynorfolk.info/steeleye.span...ndeve.html

I'm sorry to say I don't remember ever learning this song as a child
But here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohi7guabp6Q


EPILOGUE
Charles son, Charles II, regains the throne 12 years after his fathers execution. Oliver Cromwell has been dead for a few years, but that doesn't stop Charles II from getting his revenge. Cromwell's body is exhumed, dragged through the streets (They bored a hole in Oliver's nose and put therein a string, And drew him around about the town), then had his body hung on a gallows for public display. Then they chop off his head, stick it up on a pole and left it up there for a few years more for everyone to see.
Now you know why it was such a popular children's song for 300 years.

---

(09-13-2022 08:41 PM)Gene C Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-12-2022 03:00 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote: [ -> ]"I do not profess to be posted in history," Lincoln answered. "On all such matters I will turn you over to Seward. All I distinctly recollect about the case of Charles I, is, that he lost his head in the end."

To get a brief summary of Charles I, Wikipedia has a good entry on him and the trouble he got himself into
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_England
To make a long story short read the first three paragraphs.

And this reminds me of a song - Adam and Eve
(the first words to the song)

Here are the lyrics to the song and a little background information from the web site "Mainly Norfolk: English Folk and Other Good Music"
https://mainlynorfolk.info/steeleye.span...ndeve.html

I'm sorry to say I don't remember ever learning this song as a child
But here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohi7guabp6Q


EPILOGUE
Charles son, Charles II, regains the throne 12 years after his fathers execution. Oliver Cromwell has been dead for a few years, but that doesn't stop Charles II from getting his revenge. Cromwell's body is exhumed, dragged through the streets (They bored a hole in Oliver's nose and put therein a string, And drew him around about the town), then had his body hung on a gallows for public display. Then they chop off his head, stick it up on a pole and left it up there for a few years more for everyone to see.
Now you know why it was such a popular children's song for 300 years.

---

Oh my, I have never heard this song. It is just another example of gruesome nursery rhymes.

Charles II certainly had a stressful childhood. But he made up for it when he returned to Britain after Cromwell died. His nickname was The Merry Monarch due to his liking for wine women and song. He had at least 12 illegitimate children by various mistresses, but left no legitimate children.

The name "Charles" seems not a good omen for a British king... Anyway, I would think William much more popular and prosperous to keep monarchy alive and in line with the 21st century. The Queen IMO was the last real queen, the last dignity and a role model. A divorced king who lacks charisma and has waited 70yrs - nope. If I could, I would travel to Westminster to bid HRM QE farewell. With her, an era has gone - also some of my childhood and youth - She has always been there.
PS: I really loved this what-is-in-Her-handbag video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7UfiCa244XE

Love that video, Eva!

Thanks for sharing that video Eva.
I agree with you about the name "Charles" and the passing of an era.

[attachment=3416]

The Queen, horses, and Monty Roberts:
New York Times story By Jenny Gross Sept 12

In April 1989, Queen Elizabeth II had just finished lunch with Mikhail S. Gorbachev, who was in Britain to discuss the relationship between the Soviet Union and the West. Yet the monarch had another visitor to prepare for.

Monty Roberts, a renowned American horse trainer, had just arrived in Windsor, England, from his ranch in Solvang, Calif. Months earlier, the queen had read articles about Mr. Roberts’s training technique, in which the animal is taught to see the rider as a member of its herd, rather than as a master. She sent one of her horse trainers to California to observe Mr. Roberts’s methods, and, soon after, invited him to see her.

Mr. Roberts, 87, recalled his visit to see the queen — and their subsequent three-decade-long friendship. On that April 1989 trip, Mr. Roberts demonstrated his techniques for the queen using 23 of the royal family’s horses, including one belonging to Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. The Queen Mother was so moved by his work that she started crying, he recalled.

Mr. Roberts said he started visiting England six or seven times each year for hourslong meetings with the queen to advise her on her horse training program. . . . She encouraged Mr. Roberts to write a book to spread awareness of his methods, and the book, titled “The Man Who Listens to Horses,” became a best seller.

“She believed that no one should ever say to any human being or animal, ‘You do what I tell you to do, or I’ll hurt you.’”

On that first trip to Windsor Castle in 1989, Mr. Roberts saw a woman in riding clothes, brushing a horse in the stalls and thought she worked in the stables, until the crown equerry said to Mr. Roberts, “You must realize this is Queen Elizabeth II.”

“When the queen was with horses, she was a horse person,” Mr. Roberts said. “She didn’t want to be the queen.”

Mr. Roberts recalled one day when they were riding together. Through the Windsor Castle gates, a visitor called out to them and said, “Do you work here?” The queen stopped her horse and replied, “Yes, I certainly do,” and he and the queen rode off, laughing. Mr. Roberts remembers saying, “Your majesty, that woman will never know she spoke with Queen Elizabeth II,” and the queen replied, “I don’t want people to know when I’m riding around who I am — I just want them to know I love horses.”

Great post, David - I didn't know that Monty Roberts worked with her!!
He butler once revealed that she loved dogs, horses, husband's and kids - in that particular order.

(09-15-2022 02:35 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: [ -> ]Great post, David - I didn't know that Monty Roberts worked with her!!
He butler once revealed that she loved dogs, horses, husband's and kids - in that particular order.

A few weeks after his visit to Windsor Castle, Mr. Roberts, back in California, awoke to a call at 2:30 a.m. It was the queen, phoning him from London to ask for the name of the British trainer he had mentioned who had studied Mr. Roberts’s methods. Mr. Roberts gave her the name, Terry Pendry, and she promptly hired him.

Mr. Roberts said he started visiting England six or seven times each year for hourslong meetings with the queen to advise her on her horse training program. They mostly met at her royal residences at Sandringham, in the back rooms of restaurants in Windsor or in her Windsor Castle office, “with corgis all around us,” he said.

Conversations between the queen and Mr. Roberts sometimes went beyond horses. They would discuss ways to improve mental health treatment for veterans. She would ask him for his advice about problems she was having with her corgis. (Too much barking, for example.)

In 2011, the queen designated Mr. Roberts an honorary member of the Royal Victorian Order for his service to the royal family, the queen and the racing establishment. The award, photos of Mr. Roberts and the queen, and letters from her are displayed at his 100-acre ranch, called Flag Is Up Farms, which has about 90 horses.

The queen’s love for horses began when she was a young princess. She learned to ride on a Shetland pony named Peggy, which King George V, her grandfather, had given her when she was 4, and over the years, she became an avid rider. When President Ronald Reagan visited Windsor Castle in 1982, he and the queen went horseback riding.

The queen, who had her own breeding and racing operation, attended almost every Royal Ascot race in England every year starting in 1945 and owned 24 winning horses.

Mr. Roberts said the queen never missed one of his calls to discuss her horses.

Within the story itself, there is a photograph of a framed letter hand-written by the Queen in April, 2012 that is well worth reading. She became a Patron of Monty Roberts’ non-profit organization Join-Up International. The letter reads in part:

“Through Join-Up International you have dramatically changed the world [?] of training horses by promoting non-violence. This policy has also positively affected the education of children, youth at risk, domestic violence, therapeutic riding, the prison system, and psychologically damaged returning war veterans.

With all best wishes
Yours sincerely
ElyabethR


To repeat: “She believed that no one should ever say to any human being or animal, ‘You do what I tell you to do, or I’ll hurt you.’”

It does remind a bit of Abraham Lincoln's last journey, doesn't it?
https://www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v...k-62926279

(09-14-2022 05:09 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: [ -> ]The name "Charles" seems not a good omen for a British king... Anyway, I would think William much more popular and prosperous to keep monarchy alive and in line with the 21st century. The Queen IMO was the last real queen, the last dignity and a role model. A divorced king who lacks charisma and has waited 70yrs - nope. If I could, I would travel to Westminster to bid HRM QE farewell. With her, an era has gone - also some of my childhood and youth - She has always been there.
PS: I really loved this what-is-in-Her-handbag video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7UfiCa244XE

If anyone ever doubted how Brits felt about our Queen that was dispelled with the days of mourning and the passage of thousands past her coffin. We loved her. Everyone I know cried the day she died. Somehow it felt like the passing of our own mothers all over again, or our grandmothers, the death of a way of life that, while not perfect by any means, somehow felt so much safer than it does now. I thought perhaps this was an age thing....that the memories of childhood are linked inextricable with our Queen because she was always there and we'd never known anyone else in that role. But when I saw all those people paying their respects, of all ages and races and creeds, most of them in tears, it really brought it home how much she was loved and respected.

Charles? He'll never fill her boots, but I do think he'll give it his best shot, especially if he survives the ghastly damage being meted out by Meghan and Harry.