Lincoln Discussion Symposium

(06-27-2017 12:32 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: [ -> ]BLESS YOUR HEART.

I'm with you.

(06-28-2017 04:57 PM)Rogerm Wrote: [ -> ]That quote about about remaining silent and appearing to be a fool, rather than speaking and removing all doubt is actually attributable to Mark Twain.

I agree, Roger. Although the Internet is full of pages that attribute this to Lincoln, I have never been able to find a letter, speech, court case, conversation, etc. in which Lincoln ever said these words. It is not in the Collected Works, and I cannot find it in the Fehrenbachers' book. I own other books of authentic Lincoln quotes, and this is not in those either.

The same is true for "He who represents himself has a fool for a client" or "The lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client." Although often attributed to Lincoln, I cannot find he ever said it.

If anyone knows truly legitimate sources for either of these quotes, please post. Thank you.

(06-29-2017 05:00 AM)RJNorton Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-28-2017 04:57 PM)Rogerm Wrote: [ -> ]That quote about about remaining silent and appearing to be a fool, rather than speaking and removing all doubt is actually attributable to Mark Twain.

I agree, Roger. Although the Internet is full of pages that attribute this to Lincoln, I have never been able to find a letter, speech, court case, conversation, etc. in which Lincoln ever said these words. It is not in the Collected Works, and I cannot find it in the Fehrenbachers' book. I own other books of authentic Lincoln quotes, and this is not in those either.

The same is true for "He who represents himself has a fool for a client" or "The lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client." Although often attributed to Lincoln, I cannot find he ever said it.

If anyone knows truly legitimate sources for either of these quotes, please post. Thank you.

The saying predates Lincoln, while I don't know it's it's earliest instance, I found this mention from 1814:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/a-man...lient.html

http://civilwar.gratzpa.org/2016/11/fake...is-coffin/

link above

the j. gurney photo is called a fake on they civil war blog by historian PA Historian
Norman Gasbarro, Ed.D., is a genealogical/historical researcher and writer living in Philadelphia, PA. Norm taught history for over twenty-five years. He is a graduate of Muhlenberg College with a major in history and holds advanced degrees from Rowan University (NJ) and Columbia University (NY).

Why not submit your photo to Mr. Gasbarro and see what he says?

I failed to note anywhere in the article you linked to where Norman Gasbarro called the Gurney photo a fake.

He does say this : " Supposedly, one print survived and was found 87 years afterward in the papers of Lincoln’s secretary which were housed in the Illinois State Historical Library in Springfield. Although the provenance of the surviving print sounds somewhat bizarre, Stefan Lorant, an authority on photographs of Lincoln, concluded that it is authentic."

In his article, Mr Gasbarro states "Lorant also concludes that two other photographs, purporting to be “Lincoln in his coffin,” are fakes."

Mr. Gasbarro does not disagree or challenge Mr Lorant's conclusions.

(06-29-2017 03:10 PM)wcvet6 Wrote: [ -> ]http://civilwar.gratzpa.org/2016/11/fake...is-coffin/

link above

the j. gurney photo is called a fake on they civil war blog by historian PA Historian
Norman Gasbarro, Ed.D., is a genealogical/historical researcher and writer living in Philadelphia, PA. Norm taught history for over twenty-five years. He is a graduate of Muhlenberg College with a major in history and holds advanced degrees from Rowan University (NJ) and Columbia University (NY).

The way that I read this brief comment about the Gurney photo, Gasbarro does not say that the photo is fake. He is chastising Lorant for not providing details as to how the photo ended up in the Nicolay collection. Dr. Rietveld explained that rather adequately, and Lorant may have been under the thumb of an editor who was asking for a reduction in text (most publishers demand this right off the bat). I would guess that Lorant assumed that portion could be excised from his manuscript because many readers would already know the story. Please note that this is my GUESS only.

My closest friends on this forum know that I was recently involved in several years of lawsuits and appeals from a person who believes that he/she has a death photo similar to the ones that Gasboro featured. I happened to disagree with that person (as did many others more knowledgeable than I). My experience was one of the most frustrating times of my life, and it put my job in jeopardy.

May I respectfully ask that we purchase some Abraham Lincoln bandages, as featured in another post. and use them to stop the blood-letting that has been going on over this particular topic? I do not want to see anyone from this group have to go through what I went through.

this isn't personal , and I see no basis for a law suit, we can agree to disagree , there are reliable scientific methods to prove who the person in a photo is, I do not rely on this group for that purpose. I come from a military and then a medical legal background , since finding the photo I have studied the civil war on my own I find it very interesting . I am doubtful a military honor guard assembled to secure the corpse of abe Lincoln would violate the secretary of war (e, Stanton), order "NO PHOTOS be taken of the dead president,by allowing j. gurney jr. to set up his camera and equipment a take several photos of abe Lincoln lying in state in nyc. 4/24/1865, risking court marshall , imprisonment. possible hanging for what ? and staton is what a hypocrate keeping a photo ? even though abe Lincoln was shot point blank in the head breaking nasal and orbaltial facial bones then autopsy including cutting open the scalp from nape to crown sawing of f the skull cap removing the entire brain then stiching the skin back together , embalming setting the lips in a slight smile clean shaved but for a tuft on his chin , locks of hair being requested to the point the phrased was coined the scalping of abe Lincoln, the coffin photo of the head has no damage to it no smile and a beard full head of hair. no way . I believe mary had the real Lincoln corpse why she stayed in dc why rtl , nicolay /hAY got off the funeral train in Baltimore , then a fake body snatching story that a secret service guy just happened to be there that night when threy were not guarding the corpse 24/7 or at all , the perps only got one year jail time , they would have hung for that , but that allowed rtl to cement the coffin to prevent anyone from exposing the coverup. the last person to see abe lincolns corpse said he looked like a statue of him self . nicolay/hay didn't use the photo I read the y were encouraged not to . mary and their guests at the play all wound up in insane asylums and early deaths. mary didn't receive abes paycheck or a pension for years why? jfk 's murder the facts the conspiracy the coverup coverup persist to this day .

Good afternoon, folks. I quit...

(06-30-2017 02:11 PM)wcvet6 Wrote: [ -> ]the last person to see abe lincolns corpse said he looked like a statue of him self .

The full quote is as follows:

One of the people who viewed the body was a man named J.C. Thompson. In 1928 Mr. Thompson said, "As I came up I saw that top-knot of Mr. Lincoln's - his hair was course and thick, 'like a horse's,' he used to say - and it stood up high in front. When I saw that, I knew that it was Mr. Lincoln. Anyone who had ever seen his pictures would have known it was him. His features had not decayed. He looked just like a statue of himself lying there."

Marsha makes a good point about the Gurney photo, it seems unlikely he would be allowed to set up his camera and equipment without permission. It's not like he took out his cell phone and took a picture when no one was looking. He was well known in his day, it seems he may have had friends in high places in New York City (that does still happen today doesn't it?). Unfortunately, no source for the info in this internet article. The article also has a link to the Life Magazine article about that photo.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-last-...oln-2015-4

What little I have learned about Gurney is from internet articles. (So it must all be true)

Here is a short biography from Wikipedia
Gurney helped train Matthew Brady
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Gurney

Here is a sample of some of his work. Zoom in and you will be surprised by the detail. At least I was.
http://alphonsegallery.zenfolio.com/p389662824

I am stretching my feeble memory right now, and my books are at the office, but I believe that the permission to take the photo was given by one of Stanton's chosen few - an officer with the last name of Townsend - first name maybe Edward??? I don't think I'm confusing that with GATH. Check American Brutus because for some reason I'm thinking Mike Kauffman gives the information in either a chapter or in one of his fantastic endnotes.

---

I remembered correctly. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-last-...oln-2015-4 You will need to turn off any ad-blocker you have on your computer in order to read the whole article, but if you are a fast reader, the info is in the first two paragraphs before the site catches you.

Bvt. Major General Edward Davis Townsend, who is the man standing to the right of the coffin, gave permission for Gurney to take his photos just before the doors opened for the public viewing. Townsend was a graduate of West Point and had served in the army for years, was part of the Lincoln honor guard, was a member of the Adjutant General's Office, and was the grandson of former Vice President of the U.S. Eldridge Gerry. I would imagine that the latter distinction would have given him a little political clout when it came to answering to Stanton...

Google the General to see other photos that help to identify him in the death photo.

thank you rj Norton , and gene c. those links were very interesting I am greatful for your time l. verge. I believe I have said what I wanted to say thank you and goodnight

Marsha, I believe I have read that both Charles Brown and Frank Sands accompanied the remains of the late President on the trip back to Springfield. I have read that the remains deteriorated during the trip, and Brown and Sands were often called upon to keep it presentable for all the people viewing it in the various cities.

If it were really just a statue, why would it deteriorate?

Also, at least a million people passed by the open coffin in the cities along the route.

Are you saying a million people were fooled by a statue?

(07-01-2017 08:35 AM)RJNorton Wrote: [ -> ]Marsha, I believe I have read that both Charles Brown and Frank Sands accompanied the remains of the late President on the trip back to Springfield. I have read that the remains deteriorated during the trip, and Brown and Sands were often called upon to keep it presentable for all the people viewing it in the various cities.

If it were really just a statue, why would it deteriorate?

Also, at least a million people passed by the open coffin in the cities along the route.

Are you saying a million people were fooled by a statue?

I am saying there doesn't appear to be any damage to the head in the gurney photo , he looks perfect that is impossible stiches don't heal in dead man , no slight smile per the embalmers account , the beard is wrong clean shaven except a tuft on the chin , the underside of his chin is very wide and very flat to me it looks like a bust of his life mask , which could account for the eye brows being gone in 1901, as for the discolorazation the embalmer and mortician both refuted that fact . if he was decomposing ie turning black on the funeral train how was he so intact in 1901? embalming even today only slows decay it doesn't retard it . having trama and or open wounds at death speeds up decay according to the embalmers websites ive visited.plus the coffin was at least 4 ft off the ground on a stand the room was always dark and a distance was maintained between the mourners and the coffin . the record is lacking for detail for example shaving the presidents head prior to opening the scalp for brain removal and then stiching it closed would have made sense doing that with a full head of hair would have been very messey and difficult but the record is silent on that . I mean anyone should doubt a perfect looking head after all the trama it went through .

(07-01-2017 04:38 PM)wcvet6 Wrote: [ -> ]the discolorazation the embalmer and mortician both refuted that fact

Marsha, could you please post the actual quotes from Sands and Brown that refute the fact? What I have read is that Sands and Brown were silent; in other words, they neither confirmed nor denied that the face became discolored and needed work as the train proceeded along the route. General Edward Townsend wired Stanton that the remains were in good shape (in New York), but I not seen the actual quotes from Brown and Sands to which you refer.