Did Lincoln pick up Maj. Rathbone amd Miss Harris?

[RJNorton]

(06-28-2013 09:10 AM)calebj123 Wrote:  Sorry for chiming in late on this, but I wanted to say that I side with John on Clara's reliability as a witness. The acts of Clara after the assassination have been highly regarded as level headed in all aspects. She helped save Henry's life by finally stanching the flow of blood from his wound, she assisted in moving Mary Todd to the Peterson house, as well as staying by her side as Lincoln died. Clara was also the only person involved in the assassination to go back to the State box. According to the trial, Clara, her father, Judge Olin, Judge Carter and James P. Ferguson went back to investigate the scene of the crime two days later. Clara was the most level headed of any of the witnesses and continued to be so throughout her life. I second the opinion that Booth did a dry-run and scoped out the box that night. It's not only good planning, but would have been easy for him to do. The fact that there's no mention of Forbes seeing him the first time doesn't mean too much. There are plenty of stranger coincidences that night that led to the final assassination. Forbes could have stepped out with Parker at that time.

Hi Caleb. Does this mean you also accept Clara's statement that Laura Keene was never in the State Box after the shooting? The majority opinion seems to be that she was, but I have also read a few opinions that she was not. Just curious how you feel. Thanks.

[calebj123]

I tend to believe Laura Keene was not in the box. As most know, the evidence is not concrete, but seeing as how Keene had more to gain and of course had a flair for the dramatic, I can see her inflating her involvement in that historical night.

There was a great article discussing this about six months ago on the Civil War Blog and it brings up several great points. (http://civilwar.gratzpa.org/2012/01/the-...ura-keene/)

Looking at the facts, it's hard to imagine her in there.

1. According the Restoration of Ford's Theatre, the President's box, after removing the partition could hold up to six people each. That's twelve total, however, they also added extra furniture that night, making it more crowded. We know the four original people in the box, then Rathbone let in Dr. Leale, Dr. Taft and Dr. King. That brings it to seven, not to mention the women were wearing hoop skirts and Keene would have added a third large dress to the crowded room. Lincoln himself was sprawled out on the floor by then.

2. Dr. Leale's Report of the assassination and his medical assistance is very detailed. While he mentions requesting water and the water brought back, he doesn't ever mention Laura Keene. He does state that entrance to the box was very crowded and it was difficult initially for the men to move the president to the Peterson house. Which makes me believe Keene could not have entered the box that way. Especially coming from the complete opposite end of the Theatre. She would have been last in line at that time. He also states that after pulling the coagulant of blood from the president's head, the other doctor's arrived soon and they quickly decided to move the president. I don't see a lot of time for Keene to enter the picture.

3. Clara Harris has denied Keene was there. Keene herself never officially stated it. Reports on how she got there are conflicting, and some seem impossible. Like I mentioned earlier. Clara was the most clear minded of the witnesses, besides the doctors. Henry was bleeding profusely, Mary Todd was hysterical. I think Clara would have noticed Laura there and probably was so adamant about her not being there because the possibility of it was preposterous.

4. Many of these reports state her as the first to enter the box. This doesn't make any sense. Rathbone himself stated he allowed Leale to enter then asked Colonel Crawford to prevent anyone else from entering. Even if Keene did make it to the Box door, I doubt she would have been allowed to enter. Even being the star of the show, her presence wasn't necessary.

As with most disputed facts though, the truth might never really be learned.

[NJREB1863]

(06-28-2013 03:14 PM)calebj123 Wrote:  I tend to believe Laura Keene was not in the box. As most know, the evidence is not concrete, but seeing as how Keene had more to gain and of course had a flair for the dramatic, I can see her inflating her involvement in that historical night.

There was a great article discussing this about six months ago on the Civil War Blog and it brings up several great points. (http://civilwar.gratzpa.org/2012/01/the-...ura-keene/)

Looking at the facts, it's hard to imagine her in there.

1. According the Restoration of Ford's Theatre, the President's box, after removing the partition could hold up to six people each. That's twelve total, however, they also added extra furniture that night, making it more crowded. We know the four original people in the box, then Rathbone let in Dr. Leale, Dr. Taft and Dr. King. That brings it to seven, not to mention the women were wearing hoop skirts and Keene would have added a third large dress to the crowded room. Lincoln himself was sprawled out on the floor by then.

2. Dr. Leale's Report of the assassination and his medical assistance is very detailed. While he mentions requesting water and the water brought back, he doesn't ever mention Laura Keene. He does state that entrance to the box was very crowded and it was difficult initially for the men to move the president to the Peterson house. Which makes me believe Keene could not have entered the box that way. Especially coming from the complete opposite end of the Theatre. She would have been last in line at that time. He also states that after pulling the coagulant of blood from the president's head, the other doctor's arrived soon and they quickly decided to move the president. I don't see a lot of time for Keene to enter the picture.

3. Clara Harris has denied Keene was there. Keene herself never officially stated it. Reports on how she got there are conflicting, and some seem impossible. Like I mentioned earlier. Clara was the most clear minded of the witnesses, besides the doctors. Henry was bleeding profusely, Mary Todd was hysterical. I think Clara would have noticed Laura there and probably was so adamant about her not being there because the possibility of it was preposterous.

4. Many of these reports state her as the first to enter the box. This doesn't make any sense. Rathbone himself stated he allowed Leale to enter then asked Colonel Crawford to prevent anyone else from entering. Even if Keene did make it to the Box door, I doubt she would have been allowed to enter. Even being the star of the show, her presence wasn't necessary.

As with most disputed facts though, the truth might never really be learned.

While your thoughts as to why Keene would not have been able to access the box after the assassination make sense, they can't explain her bloodied dress which was kept and displayed on certain occasions for years. The documentation on the dress, as far as I know, is solid.

[calebj123]

(06-29-2013 07:56 PM)NJREB1863 Wrote:  

(06-28-2013 03:14 PM)calebj123 Wrote:  I tend to believe Laura Keene was not in the box. As most know, the evidence is not concrete, but seeing as how Keene had more to gain and of course had a flair for the dramatic, I can see her inflating her involvement in that historical night.

There was a great article discussing this about six months ago on the Civil War Blog and it brings up several great points. (http://civilwar.gratzpa.org/2012/01/the-...ura-keene/)

Looking at the facts, it's hard to imagine her in there.

1. According the Restoration of Ford's Theatre, the President's box, after removing the partition could hold up to six people each. That's twelve total, however, they also added extra furniture that night, making it more crowded. We know the four original people in the box, then Rathbone let in Dr. Leale, Dr. Taft and Dr. King. That brings it to seven, not to mention the women were wearing hoop skirts and Keene would have added a third large dress to the crowded room. Lincoln himself was sprawled out on the floor by then.

2. Dr. Leale's Report of the assassination and his medical assistance is very detailed. While he mentions requesting water and the water brought back, he doesn't ever mention Laura Keene. He does state that entrance to the box was very crowded and it was difficult initially for the men to move the president to the Peterson house. Which makes me believe Keene could not have entered the box that way. Especially coming from the complete opposite end of the Theatre. She would have been last in line at that time. He also states that after pulling the coagulant of blood from the president's head, the other doctor's arrived soon and they quickly decided to move the president. I don't see a lot of time for Keene to enter the picture.

3. Clara Harris has denied Keene was there. Keene herself never officially stated it. Reports on how she got there are conflicting, and some seem impossible. Like I mentioned earlier. Clara was the most clear minded of the witnesses, besides the doctors. Henry was bleeding profusely, Mary Todd was hysterical. I think Clara would have noticed Laura there and probably was so adamant about her not being there because the possibility of it was preposterous.

4. Many of these reports state her as the first to enter the box. This doesn't make any sense. Rathbone himself stated he allowed Leale to enter then asked Colonel Crawford to prevent anyone else from entering. Even if Keene did make it to the Box door, I doubt she would have been allowed to enter. Even being the star of the show, her presence wasn't necessary.

As with most disputed facts though, the truth might never really be learned.

While your thoughts as to why Keene would not have been able to access the box after the assassination make sense, they can't explain her bloodied dress which was kept and displayed on certain occasions for years. The documentation on the dress, as far as I know, is solid.

The data and the research is also debatable, as was her route to the state box that night. Here is an interesting in depth discussion of the dress. While it's very plausible that she did make it to the box, I tend to lean on the side of her not being there, but stranger things happened that night.

[RJNorton]

I tried to find the earliest author to report Laura Keene's presence in the State Box. I found an 1865 account by Gath in "The life, crime, & capture of John Wilkes Booth."

"Miss Laura Keene, the actress, proved herself in this awful time as equal to sustain a part in real tragedy as to interpret that of the stage. Pausing one moment before the footlights to entreat the audience to be calm, she ascended the stairs in the rear of Mr. Lincoln's box, entered it, took the dying President's head in her lap, bathed it with the water she had brought, and endeavoured to force some of the liquid through the insensible lips."

I have not been able to find any contemporaneous eyewitness accounts that Keene was in the box; if that be true, how can Townsend's 1865 account be explained?

[Jim Garrett]

I believe more people in the theatre placed Miss Keene in the box than not. I believe James Ferguson, Jeannie Gourlay and Harry Hawk all place her in the box. I believe Seaton Monroe (Munroe) mentions her walking past him covered in blood when talking the president out of the theatre. I believe in later writings, Dr. Leale reports on Miss Keene in the box. Dr. Leale's initial report was written Saturday afternoon and sticks pretty close to the basic facts. I runs a scant 12 pages on 6 by 9 mourning stationery. If I remember correctly, this was written for his superiors, General Barnes and ultimately Edwin Stanton. He kept it pretty succinct.

[RJNorton]

(06-30-2013 05:31 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  I believe Seaton Monroe (Munroe) mentions her walking past him covered in blood when talking the president out of the theatre.

Yes. 31 years later Seaton Munroe said: