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J. Beckert · 06-07-2013, 08:23 PM

(06-07-2013 06:40 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: ...products of their time, this is something one often forgets when judging. And of their circumstances. Developement is one more keyword. To be able to reconsider believes, to learn from mistakes and weaknesses and to try to grow. I think, Lincoln did that, Lee obviously, too.

(06-07-2013 03:00 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: He was probably thinking along the same lines as Sherman. "War is Hell" . I've heard there was a Civil War General who, after the war, always ordered his meat well done as he couldn't stand the sight of blood on his plate. Is that true?

At least they knew what they did, they experienced the bloodshed, not just on the screen or from another safe place. Today warbusiness is much cleaner for those in responsible positions.

Good points, Eva. Lee and Grant were actually there in the mix, unlike today's leaders. Although he's not nearly as popular as either Lee or Grant, Gen. Custer did things many times on the battlefield to inspire his men to fight that should have gotten him killed. A different time and a different breed.

My Name Is Kate · 06-08-2013, 01:57 AM

What is an "unreconstructed rebel", if I may ask?

Bill Richter · 06-08-2013, 06:02 AM

Since I am not one according to Laurie, maybe she can define this. Make it even broader in scope-what is a Southerner?

Rick Smith · 06-08-2013, 08:32 AM

(06-07-2013 04:00 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: I swear Bill Richter! Just as I'm making progress getting Yankee Joe to appreciate us Southerners, it appears that you, Unreconstructed Rebel, are becoming a Yankee!!! Am I going to have to start sending you Moon Pies too??

Laurie,

Bill is as Sothron as they come; he is just exercising a little post War diplomacy.

Rick

Laurie Verge · 06-08-2013, 01:02 PM

I say this lovingly because I have known Bill (and Rick) for nigh-on to twenty years each, and they hold many of the same thoughts and values that I do. First, it is shocking to hear that Bill is exercising diplomacy in any way because that is not one of his strong points - he usually has no problems telling you what he thinks!

To me, an unreconstructed Rebel refers to someone who has not been beaten into submission to forget or disavow their views of society, culture, politics, religion, and other entities of life in previous eras that they consider worthy of remembering. The older I get, the more I become assured that I was truly "reincarnated" from the 19th century.

RJNorton · 06-08-2013, 01:12 PM

Although the bed in the Lincoln Bedroom was not actually used by President Lincoln, the late author Dr. Merrill D. Peterson wrote on p. 324 of Lincoln in American Memory: “When President Truman told his aged mother, an unreconstructed Confederate, that she would sleep in Lincoln’s bed when visiting him in the capital, she told him in no uncertain terms that she would sleep on the floor instead.”

Dr. Peterson's book is full of interesting information, stories, reminiscences, etc., and I highly recommend it.

LincolnMan · 06-08-2013, 02:20 PM

I have to say in reading all the postings on this particular thread- I don't agree with it all- but I've sure enjoyed reading all of the different perspectives on it. I was a bit taken aback when I first read the title of the thread - but my patience won out and I waited to see what the responses would bear. I'm glad I waited. I do seem to recall that Gary Gallagher had an article in the Civil War Times or one of the other Civil War related mags that was specifically about Lee and the issue of slavery. Does anyone remember this article? I think his piece was based on some new letters that had been discovered- written by Lee- that demonstrated his keeping slaves much longer than he could have. Gallagher was quite forthcoming that Lee sanctioned slavery by his actions. Please forgive me for trying to remember the specifics of the article. Hopefully, someone is familiar with the work I'm referring too.

Bill Richter · (This post was last modified: 06-08-2013 03:20 PM by Bill Richter.)

If you want unreconstructed defined, google the lyrics to the song "O, I'm a Good Ole Rebel"

On Lee and slavery by Gallagher, try this:
http://www.arlingtonblackheritage.org/ex...islee.html

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 03-22-2020 06:34 AM by Gene C.)

Here is the song "Oh. I am a Good Ole Rebel" by Bobby Horton

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKUHzljiUVA

there is another version by Hoyt Axton, but the one by Bobby Horton I think captures the sentiment better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5EHpok66SU

Not to be confused with the above, another good song is "I am a Rebel Soldier"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa8GIVblH_I

My Name Is Kate · (This post was last modified: 06-08-2013 07:27 PM by My Name Is Kate.)

I don't understand most of those sentiments. But I doubt that I would understand the Yankee sentiments either, whatever they are.

Rick Smith · 06-08-2013, 06:15 PM

(06-08-2013 02:20 PM)LincolnMan Wrote: I have to say in reading all the postings on this particular thread- I don't agree with it all- but I've sure enjoyed reading all of the different perspectives on it. I was a bit taken aback when I first read the title of the thread - but my patience won out and I waited to see what the responses would bear. I'm glad I waited. I do seem to recall that Gary Gallagher had an article in the Civil War Times or one of the other Civil War related mags that was specifically about Lee and the issue of slavery. Does anyone remember this article? I think his piece was based on some new letters that had been discovered- written by Lee- that demonstrated his keeping slaves much longer than he could have. Gallagher was quite forthcoming that Lee sanctioned slavery by his actions. Please forgive me for trying to remember the specifics of the article. Hopefully, someone is familiar with the work I'm referring too.

One of the reasons that Lee kept his slaves as long as he did {1859-1862} is due to his decision to educate them before setting them free. It took longer to do it this way. Lee signed the last manumission papers in December of 1862.

From 1854 to 1859, Grant lived and worked at White Haven, a plantation owned by his father-in-law, Col. Frederick Dent.

This is from the White Haven historic site: Ulysses Grant freed the only slave he is known to have owned, William Jones, in March 1859. It is unclear exactly when or why he acquired Jones from his father-in-law, Colonel Frederick Dent. “I Ulysses S. Grant…do hereby manumit, emancipate and set free from Slavery my Negro man William, sometimes called William Jones…forever.”

Grant may have owned at least one slave for as long or even longer than Lee had his.

Wonder if Gallagher thought that Grant sanctioned slavery?

Gene C · 06-09-2013, 06:14 AM

(06-08-2013 06:15 PM)Rick Smith Wrote: One of the reasons that Lee kept his slaves as long as he did {1859-1862} is due to his decision to educate them before setting them free. It took longer to do it this way. Lee signed the last manumission papers in December of 1862.

A good thing to do, but before we get to excited about Lee's actions, Lincoln had signed the Emancipation Proclimation on Sept 22, 1862 to become effective Jan 1, 1863. I don't know, but maybe Lee could read the writing on the wall, and did what was going to happen anyway. Your thoughts please

Did Lee have another home other than the Custis Lee mansion in Arlington?

Rick Smith · 06-09-2013, 06:25 AM

(06-09-2013 06:14 AM)Gene C Wrote:
(06-08-2013 06:15 PM)Rick Smith Wrote: One of the reasons that Lee kept his slaves as long as he did {1859-1862} is due to his decision to educate them before setting them free. It took longer to do it this way. Lee signed the last manumission papers in December of 1862.

A good thing to do, but before we get to excited about Lee's actions, Lincoln had signed the Emancipation Proclimation on Sept 22, 1862 to become effective Jan 1, 1863. I don't know, but maybe Lee could read the writing on the wall, and did what was going to happen anyway. Your thoughts please

Did Lee have another home other than the Custis Lee mansion in Arlington?

Lee was dedicated to freeing his slaves due to his personal convictions{he believed slavery to be a great moral evil}, which had been owned by his father-in-law, but he was also acting in accordance with the terms of Custis' will, which provided for the freedom of his slaves.

I do not believe that Lee owned any other property than Arlington. All of his father's property had been lost long ago and he and his mother had to live with relatives during Lee's youth. After the War, Lee lived for a time in Richmond with his wife in a house provided by friends, until he accepted the offer to be President of Washington College.

Gene C · 06-09-2013, 06:28 AM

Thanks Rick

LincolnMan · 06-09-2013, 06:44 AM

Well, I traced back the article I referred to. It was in 2009 ( yes, time flies!). The February 2009 issue of Civil War Times. The author is not Gary Gallagher, it's Elizabeth Brown Pryor. Her article: Robert E. Lee and Slavery explores the issues and content of this thread using Lee's own letters. It's too lengthy to go into here but is a "must-read" for anyone interested in the topic. I will include this quote for consideration from the article:
"Remarkably, some biographers have labeled Lee an "emancipator" despite the clear record of his actions and beliefs. How can this be? I think the answer is rooted in the longing people have for their idols to be great in every way, rather than ordinary than ordinary or imperfect. As heroes become iconic figures, people also want to attach their aspirations to them, in a process sociologists call "transference." In their zeal, they hope their leaders will represent not only what they are as a society, but what they would like to be. It is fascinating and telling that Southerners have wanted Lee to represent-the better self they want him to be- is an anti avert leader."