John Minchin Lloyd - Who was he...really?

[L Verge]

It was James O. Hall who pointed out the fact that John Atzerodt was drinking in the tavern on March 18 when the conspiratorial trio arrived with the supplies after the aborted kidnapping. I remember well sitting in the room upstairs at Surratt House and having my jaw drop when I heard Mr. Hall say that. In all my readings, I had never run across that information. It was during a training session for new docents in either late-1975 or early-1976.

The Surratt Tavern was a very popular stop for many people - including Union forces - throughout the war, so I don't think it would have been that strange for the two brothers to meet by accident there. And, I'm sure that Mr. Lloyd knew enough to keep his mouth shut around John Surratt, Jr. Don't bite the hand that's giving you a roof over your head. Remember also that John Lloyd came from a long line of Virginians and had also been farming in Allen's Fresh in Charles County, a hamlet very close to the Potomac and the blockade running trade. I'm quite sure we can suspicion where his sympathies might lie. Like others, however, he did not bargain for full-fledged assassination.

[Jim Garrett]

What an absoluteley terrifc thread. Going down the John Atzerodt road, how about a picture of John? Anyone ever see one?

[scldrgnfly]

Here is the link to the Benn Pittman letter to the Phonographic Institute stating he left the picture of Dr. Samuel Mudd out of the official picture of the alleged conspirators out of respect for the doctor's family. It is on the Dr. Samuel A. Mudd Research Site:

http://www.samuelmudd.com/the-accused.html

Will post about John M. as soon as I check a few things and take care of my daughter's financial aid stuff for UNC.

Frankly, I am in awe of my illustrious company!!! I am not worthy!! I have so much to read to catch up with all of you!!

About Beall, was he involved in any blockade running around Port Tobacco, and does anyone know how I can find out about ships that were seized for the Union around Washington, DC and Alexandria?

Martha Edwards Smith

[Laurie Verge]

How interesting about Mudd's family requiring respect and Mrs. Surratt's earning her photo in the center - especially since it was Dr. Mudd who introduced Booth into the Surratt family. I wonder if the money of Dr. Mudd's father, Henry Lowe Mudd, and the prestige of the Ewing family had any influence on the Pittman decision?

John Yates Beall did do some privateering in the Potomac River and the Chesapeake Bay, I believe, before turning his attention northward.

[scldrgnfly]

Even more interesting is the fact that even though Pittman tries to rectify the problem, he never seems to get around to it. It makes one wonder if Mudd would have ever swung? AND...you know how advertising works, was Mary just a foregone conclusion, or did the illustration go a long way to influence the verdict. When did that grouping come hot in relation to the tribunal?

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out, not "hot"

[wsanto]

(04-03-2013 01:09 PM)scldrgnfly Wrote:  Even more interesting is the fact that even though Pittman tries to rectify the problem, he never seems to get around to it. It makes one wonder if Mudd would have ever swung? AND...you know how advertising works, was Mary just a foregone conclusion, or did the illustration go a long way to influence the verdict. When did that grouping come out in relation to the tribunal?

Pittman's letter to Ewing is dated Aug 24th. That is a month and a half after the hangings. It seems that the engraving for the cover of the book was influenced by the verdict and not vice versa.

It is interesting that in Mudd's place is an image of John Surratt Jr. He wasn't even on trial.

[scldrgnfly]

Although the image under discussion was in the published work, I thought there might have been others using the same format that may have come out before or during the tribunal.

John Jr.'s omission does seem interesting, of course, he hadn't been captured or convicted, but you would think they would want people to be on the lookout for him.

Has this been considered, because it still bothers me? Could John Jr. have been protected at all costs because of the scope of the information, contacts and plans of the Confederate Secret Service? He might have had to divulge much more than the conspiracy details, especially since the kidnapping conspiracy escalated to assassination? Is that why he was conveniently sent to Canada, to remove him from the maelstrom about to hit?

Or, could John Jr.'s removal precipitate the escalation and the seeming addition to Herold's job description of that of clue planter?
"
Also, I just reread John M. Lloyd's testimony and he said they said they were pretty sure of assassinating Lincoln and Seward was Atzerodt's failure considered a "fete a complet," since they didn't even mention Johnson's attempt and the fact that Herold didn't even stick around for moral support(which he sort of did with Powell). When you consider George Atzerodt's poor reputation for valor, it might make sense, in addition to the fact (?) that McPhail, George's brother-in-law and his brother, John C. went to see him personally, because they wanted to see what trouble he'd gotten himself into, as if he was someone that needed taking care of.

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Also, checking for a picture of John C. Atzerodt, but did anyone know he probably went back to carriage repair, etc. I forget which City Register I found it in right now, but in the years after the war a Charles Atzerodt was in that business in DC. I didn't realize John Atzerodt's middle initial was C. till I saw the Port Tobacco advertisement for their carriage building and repair shop there from before the war.

Still working on whether John had inklings about G.'s involvement, but their closeness, the proximity of the tavern and the seemingly common practice of having a day job as a conscriptee for the Union and at night working for the cause they loved. It would be really interesting to find out how many deserters John C. actually brought back to the fold.

Also, how many coincidences are too many coincidences?

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Maybe they didn't even expect George to get convicted because of his not following through on Johnson's assassination.

[John Stanton]

(04-03-2013 04:00 AM)scldrgnfly Wrote:  Here is the link to the Benn Pittman letter to the Phonographic Institute stating he left the picture of Dr. Samuel Mudd out of the official picture of the alleged conspirators out of respect for the doctor's family. It is on the Dr. Samuel A. Mudd Research Site:

http://www.samuelmudd.com/the-accused.html

Will post about John M. as soon as I check a few things and take care of my daughter's financial aid stuff for UNC.

Frankly, I am in awe of my illustrious company!!! I am not worthy!! I have so much to read to catch up with all of you!!

About Beall, was he involved in any blockade running around Port Tobacco, and does anyone know how I can find out about ships that were seized for the Union around Washington, DC and Alexandria?

Martha Edwards Smith
Re Post #18. Google "Potomac Flotilla". There is a list of all boats. Pick a name and Google that. When you have a chance, post some specific questions. I have parts of logbooks (April 13 to April 24, 1865) for about 25 gunboats - maybe I can help. I am working on a story about the "Reliance" that involves Gen George Armstrong Custer. Wierd, eh what?

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[quote='John Stanton' pid='15617' dateline='1365025080']
[quote='scldrgnfly' pid='15588' dateline='1364976051']
Here is the link to the Benn Pittman letter to the Phonographic Institute stating he left the picture of Dr. Samuel Mudd out of the official picture of the alleged conspirators out of respect for the doctor's family. It is on the Dr. Samuel A. Mudd Research Site:

http://www.samuelmudd.com/the-accused.html

Will post about John M. as soon as I check a few things and take care of my daughter's financial aid stuff for UNC.

Frankly, I am in awe of my illustrious company!!! I am not worthy!! I have so much to read to catch up with all of you!!

About Beall, was he involved in any blockade running around Port Tobacco, and does anyone know how I can find out about ships that were seized for the Union around Washington, DC and Alexandria?

Martha Edwards Smith
Re Post #18. Google "Potomac Flotilla". There is a list of all boats. Pick a name and Google that. When you have a chance, post some specific questions. I have parts of logbooks (April 13 to April 24, 1865) for about 25 gunboats - maybe I can help. I am working on a story about the "Reliance" that involves Gen George Armstrong Custer. Wierd, eh what?

PS. There were Navy boats, Army boats, Detective boats, so we may not be able to get them all. Lafayette Bakers cousin (Stanard) was in charge of the boats in Alexandria, VA - that gave Baker his "own Navy".

[L Verge]

Speaking of George Armstrong Custer and "weird," we once ran across a reference that said Custer actually visited Surratt Tavern during the war. We could never find any proof to him even being in the vicinity.

[John Stanton]

Laurie. Custer was camped at Lamb's Creek Church in King George Co. in the summer of 1863. The action I'm working on was in late August. Say Aug. 25 at the Rappahannock between Port Conway and Port Royal. He had to get here somehow, and had to get away. Maybe the date will you find your answers.

[Craig Hipkins]

Interesting thread. It does seem strange that no photograph of Lloyd has ever emerged from the records. The government took photographs of the other conspirators including some who were never brought to trial, or were blatantly innocent. the one that comes to mind is that Portuguese sea Captain that supposedly threatened Seward.
I would also like to see a photograph of John Parker who was probably the most enigmatic person involved in the Lincoln Assassination.

Craig

[RJNorton]

(04-03-2013 09:33 PM)Craig Hipkins Wrote:  I would also like to see a photograph of John Parker who was probably the most enigmatic person involved in the Lincoln Assassination.

Craig, Mr. James O. Hall wrote an article titled "The Mystery of Lincoln's Guard" in the May 1982 issue of the Surratt Society News.

Mr. Hall concluded his article by saying, "There are Parker descendants in the Washington area today, but they do not bear the Parker name. They have no pictures of him and no family records left by him."

So it sure seems unlikely that a photo will surface, but who knows...

[Craig Hipkins]

(04-04-2013 05:03 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(04-03-2013 09:33 PM)Craig Hipkins Wrote:  I would also like to see a photograph of John Parker who was probably the most enigmatic person involved in the Lincoln Assassination.

Craig, Mr. James O. Hall wrote an article titled "The Mystery of Lincoln's Guard" in the May 1982 issue of the Surratt Society News.

Mr. Hall concluded his article by saying, "There are Parker descendants in the Washington area today, but they do not bear the Parker name. They have no pictures of him and no family records left by him."

So it sure seems unlikely that a photo will surface, but who knows...

Roger, Good information. I guess that if there was a photo of him somewhere it would have belonged to a family member. Too bad police records didn't take photos of their officers back in those days.

Craig

[scldrgnfly]

(04-03-2013 05:38 PM)John Stanton Wrote:  

(04-03-2013 04:00 AM)scldrgnfly Wrote:  Here is the link to the Benn Pittman letter to the Phonographic Institute stating he left the picture of Dr. Samuel Mudd out of the official picture of the alleged conspirators out of respect for the doctor's family. It is on the Dr. Samuel A. Mudd Research Site:

http://www.samuelmudd.com/the-accused.html

Will post about John M. as soon as I check a few things and take care of my daughter's financial aid stuff for UNC.

Frankly, I am in awe of my illustrious company!!! I am not worthy!! I have so much to read to catch up with all of you!!

About Beall, was he involved in any blockade running around Port Tobacco, and does anyone know how I can find out about ships that were seized for the Union around Washington, DC and Alexandria?

Martha Edwards Smith
Re Post #18. Google "Potomac Flotilla". There is a list of all boats. Pick a name and Google that. When you have a chance, post some specific questions. I have parts of logbooks (April 13 to April 24, 1865) for about 25 gunboats - maybe I can help. I am working on a story about the "Reliance" that involves Gen George Armstrong Custer. Wierd, eh what?

---

[quote='John Stanton' pid='15617' dateline='1365025080']
[quote='scldrgnfly' pid='15588' dateline='1364976051']
Here is the link to the Benn Pittman letter to the Phonographic Institute stating he left the picture of Dr. Samuel Mudd out of the official picture of the alleged conspirators out of respect for the doctor's family. It is on the Dr. Samuel A. Mudd Research Site:

http://www.samuelmudd.com/the-accused.html

Will post about John M. as soon as I check a few things and take care of my daughter's financial aid stuff for UNC.

Frankly, I am in awe of my illustrious company!!! I am not worthy!! I have so much to read to catch up with all of you!!

About Beall, was he involved in any blockade running around Port Tobacco, and does anyone know how I can find out about ships that were seized for the Union around Washington, DC and Alexandria?

Martha Edwards Smith
Re Post #18. Google "Potomac Flotilla". There is a list of all boats. Pick a name and Google that. When you have a chance, post some specific questions. I have parts of logbooks (April 13 to April 24, 1865) for about 25 gunboats - maybe I can help. I am working on a story about the "Reliance" that involves Gen George Armstrong Custer. Wierd, eh what?

PS. There were Navy boats, Army boats, Detective boats, so we may not be able to get them all. Lafayette Bakers cousin (Stanard) was in charge of the boats in Alexandria, VA - that gave Baker his "own Navy".

---

I apologize for reposting that last post!

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back, I have been trying to catch up on everyone's work I can find.
To Betty and Laurie, you have given me courage and I have found someone in the family that has at least one box of pictures and maybe two. We are going to meet soon. Interestingly, one photo she emailed me was of an H. C. Wilkes, how did JWB come by his middle name?

To John Stanton, I did find the ships, but evidently, what occurred was at some point in 1861, before the actual Potomac Flotilla was officially organized, they sought "volunteers" from the ships in Washington and at least one of my cousins' ships was taken into the Union fleet. While he worked for the Union while on duty, his heart and off-times were devoted to the Confederacy. In fact, there is some question in the family as to how it was rather easily "taken" from the Union and used by those who took her to capture more Union Prizes on the way to the Rapahannock...It was the St. Nicholas, taken by Zarvona (Thomas). I have one of my cousin's ads from before 1861, so I know it was the St. Nicholas....he also had a son named Nicholas.

Did you happen to see "The Dictionary of Naval War Ships (I think)" on Google?

Also, does anybody know who the real J. J. Reford, or J. J. Chaffee are? Are they code names? If so, I might have a guess. I would love to know if they are real names for real people.

Could the Lincoln Assassination Conspiracy have a both Union and Confederate support group?

I think I might have made some interesting connections that fit together quite logically and tie together quite nicely, but it's a bit complicated and I really want the mystery to unfold for all of you in pieces....I keep finding things that connect, and while I think there could have been suspicions about this direction, I really haven't found anyone pursuing this line.

Did anyone know that about this time there was a ship out there called the "Lincoln Webb?" Coincidence?? Funny! Eh!?! Kidnappers and murderers with a sense of humor??

I really do need to know about Chaffee and Reford, if anyone knows, or knows where to look.

We used to sail at "Little Washington" all the time (Demills), coincidences abound. Did I say that in addition to being related to John Minchen Lloyd, my maternal grandmother was a Perrine, related to Charles O. Perrine, the cartographer who made the map of the Southern States (Confederate) that was in JWB's coat pocket in Atzerodt's room at the Kirkwood....and, if I am right about this other thing, my daughter babysat some of the great-great grandchildren of another family possibly involved in the conspiracy while she was in college. Crazy!! I know I could be wrong about the last thing.

[BettyO]

scldrgnfly, good to see you post again!

John Wilkes Booth was named after the 18th British radical and politician - John Wilkes. The Elder Booth, Junius Brutus Booth, was a great admirer of Wilkes.


John Wilkes
(1725-1797)