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Laurie Verge · 10-23-2012, 11:35 AM

Lindsey just threw another chicken in the pot re: possible saddlebags: There is testimony to the effect that Herold requested an English saddle. She is familiar with English saddles and used them in riding. To the best of her recollection, English saddles of that era did not use saddlebags. What sayeth ye of the horse persuasions?

Jerry - My thought process on the guns being stashed at Mudd's is this: Booth heard Lincoln's speech on April 11 and was ignited to act quickly. By the afternoon of April 12, I'm betting that he had David Herold on the road into Southern Maryland to alert the Confederate line of support that something big was in the works and to be ready. Since Dr. Mudd and Dr. Queen had been the first contacts made by Booth in Southern Maryland in November of 1864, I would think it logical that he check in with one of them -- and Mudd was the closest.

I do not think that Herold told any of the Confederates that the plan had changed to assassination - just to be ready for something big. If Herold left D.C. in the early afternoon of April 12, riding at a normal pace, he would probably reach Mudd by 4-5 pm. He could have dropped off a package (didn't necessarily have to say what was in it) and then moved on to the next check point -- Burtles, Canter, Cox, Queen, whomever. He also had either family or friends in Patuxent City in the same general area where he could have spent the night and continued his duties on April 13. On the return trip, he reached T.B. and the Huntts in time for supper. During this time period, supper was generally served about 6-7 pm. He sleeps over at the Huntts' house and is gone by the time their baby demanded breakfast about 6 am. I believe that one of Davey's sisters said that he was home in time for breakfast.

Honestly, Jerry, I am just speculating based on my family's story and the quick action between the night of April 11 and the night of April 14. I do not believe that the fugitives retrieved anything from Surratt Tavern except whiskey, the field glasses, and one carbine. I think Bill Richter's idea of Davey only alighting long enough to awaken Lloyd and grab the whiskey bottle, re-mounting, and then having to control his skittish mare, who was probably raring to run again, makes a lot of sense in explaining Art's post about the stable.

There is a possibility of the weapons being stashed at the T.B. Hotel, but why wouldn't Davey spend the night there on the 13th instead of at Huntt's?

I think each plan (kidnap or assassination) was geared to Mudd's being the first layover. I have thought that for about forty years, so it will take dynamite to make this old mule change her mind on that one!

John Fazio · 10-23-2012, 11:57 AM

William:

It appears that you have taken my comments too personally, not to say you should not have taken them personally at all. They were directed principally at O'Reilly and Dugard's work, not at you. However, I do believe that the notion that Booth stopped at the boarding-house after the assassination is fanciful. Others in the thread have called it "a stretch". We get the idea. The problem with it is that it is not supported by a scrap of evidence (direct or circumstantial), by reason or by human nature, the three keys that open all doors. Logic dictates that someone who had just murdered the nation's chief magistrate, and knowing that the city was crawling with Federal troops, cavalry units, guards, Metropolitan Police, National Detective Police and an irate citizenry that would would take his head off if they could get their hands on him, would get as far from the scene of the crime, and as fast, as he could. The last thing he would do is stop somewhere on the way out to pick up guns or for any other purpose, thereby consuming precious time and taking terribile risk. He would, rather, ride like hell for the bridge, cross it calmly (so as not to arouse suspicion, and with help in the wings if he had a problem with Silas Cobb--my theory, to be developed later), then ride like hell some more until he was safely away (per Polk Gardiner), and then slow down as he made his way through the dark and quiet countryside, to conserve his and his horse's energy (per Swanson). And this is exactly what the evidence, reason and our understanding of human nature (the self-preservation instinct) tell us.

I regret that you took my comments as a personal insult. They were not intended as such.

Sales of O'Reilly's and Dugard's book are not relevant to its value as a contribution to our quest for historical truth. Goods of less value generally outsell goods of greater value. If you have not done so already, may I suggest that you read Steers's review of the book (A Missed Opportunity).

Thank you.

John

Gene C · 10-23-2012, 12:02 PM

How many guards were there at the Navy yard bridge on each side?
About how long was the bridge?

KLarson · 10-23-2012, 03:42 PM

(10-23-2012 11:22 AM)J. Beckert Wrote: Sorry, Gene, AB is "American Brutus" and the LAS are the Gov't's Lincoln Assassination files. I've never read them and don't know if they're online. Can anyone help with that?

Gene, the entire collection of Lincoln Assassination files from the National Archives are now digitized and available online for free at Fold3.com. Fold3 is a fee for service online project in partnership with the National Archives. They have been digitizing military records, mostly, these past few years, though they do have newspapers, census records, city directories, and more, too. But some records are free, so check it out. It is very interesting to see the original, handwritten letters, records, interrogations, and more in the collection as opposed to transcriptions. You can search by keyword, too. Enjoy!

Gene C · 10-23-2012, 03:56 PM

Thanks, wow I wish I wasn't at work so I could dive right in.

John Stanton · 10-23-2012, 04:22 PM

The referenced letter is in "The Evidence"
by STEERS pg 829

Rick Smith · 10-23-2012, 04:35 PM

Laurie,

As a response to your request for information regarding saddle furniture {I know, it sounds weird, but that is what it is called} specifically for English style saddles. My family raised thoroughbred horses in Howard County and we were members of the Goshen Hunt out of Laytonsville. The modern English saddle is not equipped to carry the classic style western saddle bags, but is equipped with small steel or brass "D" rings at various points so that leather cases, bags, valises, flask holders and holsters {the master of Hounds always carried a pistol to dispatch a fox before the dogs could get a hold of it} may be attached. Not sure if the saddles Booth & Herold were using were strictly speaking English style, but probably were much like them. A valise attaches at the rear of the saddle and is long, tube shaped and could easily hold all sorts of items, including hand guns.

Rick

JMadonna · (This post was last modified: 10-23-2012 04:59 PM by JMadonna.)

Forchrisssakes!!

Maybe the mare was skittish because Booth hid the pistol where the sun didn't shine - or maybe Booth wore a special pair of shock absorbing boots for his jump to the stage and changed them to his gun toting boots when he was out of town. If he hid the guns in his boots where did he hide the holster? I don't know he plays third - who's on first?

Face it people, Bill has the best theory out there.

Rick Smith · 10-23-2012, 06:06 PM

All,

Forgot to mention that notwithstanding my response to Laurie regarding saddle furniture, which was only by way of instruction, I strongly hold with Bill's theory and have done since reading LCH 14 years ago.

For those of you who have not done so, read LCH. You will not be disappointed.

As Jerry says, it is not just plausible, but a logical extension.

Rick

Bill Richter · 10-23-2012, 06:08 PM

Hey Madonna! How many beers was I going to buy you at the annual meeting?

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 10-23-2012 06:45 PM by L Verge.)

Bill has good theories and a wonderful knowledge of the assassination (along with everything else in American and world history!). However, he tells people up front that he writes historical novels and therefore can add, subtract, and speculate as much as he wants.

This is exactly what he has done here -- and in the process, he has gotten our thought processes, imaginations, and research juices flowing. Again, the old school teacher in me is thrilled to see this give-and-take! And, I bet Bill is enjoying it too. Remember that he was a college professor in years gone by, and this is just the sort of exercise that good professors challenge their classes with.

Let's not get hot under the collar about this. Let's continue to theorize and defend our beliefs. Who knows, there might be an answer out there with documentation behind it.

My sales and catering staff at Colony South Hotel is going to be delighted with all the alcoholic beverages that are going to be consumed at the conference this year! Bill owes Jerry unknown quantities of beer; I owe Joe Beckert unknown quantities of Yuengling; He owes me "a few" Jack & Gingers; by the time the Saturday night banquet comes, my staff is ready to drink anything with a kick!

Last March, my 11-year-old grandson joined us for the Saturday banquet. We sat at the staff table - the rowdiest one in the banquet hall. As we were going home, I asked him if he had a good time. He responded, "Yeah, it was fun watching _______ get drunk! Actually, _____ was just tired and a little tipsy. (No, _____was not me!)

Rick Smith · 10-23-2012, 07:22 PM

Bill,

72 posts since the beginning of your topic, pard.

Roger, is this a record of some kind?

Rick

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 10-23-2012 07:39 PM by BettyO.)

(10-23-2012 06:06 PM)Rick Smith Wrote: All,

Forgot to mention that notwithstanding my response to Laurie regarding saddle furniture, which was only by way of instruction, I strongly hold with Bill's theory and have done since reading LCH 14 years ago.

For those of you who have not done so, read LCH. You will not be disappointed.

As Jerry says, it is not just plausible, but a logical extension.

Rick

Definitely -- if you have NOT read LCH - you are missing a real treat! Best historical novel out there! The new "modern" ones can't hold a candle to it! Bill has it all down pat - history, language, social customs - it's grand - a REAL "you are there" feel.....!

Jim Garrett · 10-23-2012, 08:10 PM

This thread has taken on a life of it's own.

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 10-23-2012 08:55 PM by L Verge.)

Amen - and let's keep sewing with it...

(10-23-2012 08:10 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: This thread has taken on a life of it's own.

Jim, I understand that the topic is so popular that it is being copied on another similar blog. Way to go Bill...