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Christine · 07-12-2019, 09:34 PM

(07-07-2019 09:26 PM)L Verge Wrote: Just a little follow-up on the petitioners in the 1995 exhumation case:

"John Wilkes Booth had no
legitimate children and no direct descendants. Two
distant descendants agreed to become Petitioners in a
legal effort to force Green Mount Cemetery to permit
the exhumation of the remains of John Wilkes Booth:
Virginia Eleanor Humbrecht Kline of Pennsylvania, a
first cousin twice removed, and Lois White Rathbun
of Rhode Island, a great, great, great niece.
Not all the distant descendants were in favor of
an exhumation. At the time of the hearing, Marie
Worster, who is Petitioner Kline's sister, did not
consent to an exhumation, nor did her daughter. Mrs.
Worster and her daughter have possession of the
original deed given by Green Mount Cemetery to

Mary Ann Booth. I spoke with Mrs. Worster and
urged her to come to court and testify as to her opposition, but she did not want to become publicly
involved." excerpted from a legal article prepared by Frank Gorman.

There were supposedly 22 petitioners, none of close kin. After the case, a leading historian in the assassination field spoke with a number of them whom he knew from previous interviews. They indicated that they had been pressured into going along with the petition, and many said they just wanted to get the whole thing over with.

Frankly, so do I! There comes a time when historical evidence has to take precedence over family legend, speculation, and hearsay

Small comment/correction: To be a descendant you have to descend from someone. Which means none of the 'cousins' would be JWB's descendants. They would be relatives. Only direct line children, grandchildren, great grandchildren would be his descendants. So the claimants were not 'distant descendants.'

Steve Whitlock · 07-12-2019, 10:10 PM

Oops. Rev J. W. Simmons was on McComb, not Macomb. Not sure whether there was both a Macomb and McComb.
[/quote]

Another look at the City Directory has both David E. George and James W. Simmons, and wife Nortie, living at "r 107 s Macomb". The census record shows McComb in the image. Somebody made a mistake with either the Directory or Census.

Steve Whitlock · 07-18-2019, 03:56 PM

(07-12-2019 07:45 PM)Steve Wrote: According to Bates' book, David E. George, previously went by the alias George D. Ryan in other towns of Oklahoma Territory:

https://archive.org/details/escapesuicid...e/page/228

I checked and couldn't find any mention of the name George Ryan or its variants. Also you can tell from the articles I posted on the other thread, David E. George, painter "of Dallas" appears in several Oklahoma newspapers, including in some of the same towns where the Ryan alias was supposedly used.

In fact the earliest confirmed record I could find mentioning David E. George is from page 8 of the April 14, 1897 edition of the Evening Messenger of Marshall, Texas:

This confirms, at least, that he did indeed come to Oklahoma from Texas. But I can't find any record or city directory listing of him in Dallas. Unfortunately, he seems to have been missed in the 1900 census. There was that insurance policy paper found on him when he died, but that seems to have been bogus, so I'm not sure if we can take the information the policy or the repudiated will says about his origins and family at face value or not.

I was thinking maybe the Ford investigation of Bates and his claims about Mr. George picked up some clues that might have seemed insignificant or impossible to follow up at the time that might be easier to follow-up now with all the historical records and databases online now

FM Steve,

"Paralyzed, he was dragged from the flames. As he lay dying, he repeatedly whispered, "Tell my mother I die for my country." And finally, with his limp and nearly lifeless hands raised to his face: "Useless. Useless."

Going on faith among the final words of John Wilkes Booth were "Tell my mother I die for my country." Given his paralysis and damaged vertebrae one wonders how he raised his hands to his face, and was able to speak coherently, but, as I said, 'going on faith' one would suppose he said those words, and meant that his final wish be carried out, which supposes that those he spoke to knew who he was, and who his mother was; otherwise he might have to tell someone who his mother was, and where she could be reached.

I just thought I'd mention that because nobody ever does, to my knowledge, with all the countless opinions and speculations about JWB.

But back to David E. George. Note in the attachments for David E. George the rather large feet and hands. I had thought there must be a mistake and they just put an old oversized shoe on him, but the mummy shows that David had some big feet and hands, unlike John Wilkes Booth, more in accordance with mine; however , I'm 6' 1 1/2" and John Wilkes Booth was 5' 8 1/2" tall. I believe Finis L. Bates claimed the JWB height to be the same for David E. George, but I haven't found any record of anyone measuring his height. Surprisingly, those doctors who examined David E. George seemed to have skipped that basic step.

The attached photos for JWB show his feet in accordance with his height and his hands seem small in comparison to the actor in uniform. Definitely, David E. George, never mind disputes as to any facial resemblance, his feet and hands alone say he was NOT John Wilkes Booth.

But who was he, really? George E. Smith, said to be a half-brother or friend to David E. George, and the one supposedly sending remittance money to sustain Mr. George, exchanged a couple of letters with Finis L. Bates in 1921, the letters being in Box 2.1 of the Finis L. Bates Collection.

"Corresp. (2/26/1921) from George E. Smith to Finis L. Bates asking whether the remains are on exhibit. Corresp. (3/23/1921) from George E. Smith to Finis L. Bates regarding his acquaintance with George in El Reno."

It would be helpful to us if we could find those letters, and get the address of George E. Smith, hopefully then to find him in a census and determine whether he is actually a half-brother of Mr Smith, or whether he can lead us to David E. George in 1850-1860 census, which should precede David E. George's "killed a man in TX" scenario, and therefore, give us his real name.

Steve · 07-18-2019, 04:08 PM

Too bad we don't know where the mummy is located exactly now. If we did, we could still measure its approximate size now.

L Verge · 07-18-2019, 06:36 PM

(07-18-2019 04:08 PM)Steve Wrote: Too bad we don't know where the mummy is located exactly now. If we did, we could still measure its approximate size now.

I'm trying to respond to these posts while at home (where my personal books are out of reach) and am straining my aging memory. However, I believe that the accurate account (Rob Wick, where are you?) of Booth talking to his hands is that he asked to have his hands raised, and his request was granted. As for his ability to speak, James O. Hall explained that medically to us forty years ago, and it had something to do with him still having limited control of breathing.

Booth knew that the soldiers had identified him correctly, so he wasn't going to pretend any more. He was definitely his mother's favorite son, and he adored her, so it was very important to him that someone get word to her as to why he did what he did. Even dying, he still considered himself a hero by attempting to stave off the newly designed, central government and what ill effects it would have on the country.

As for the size of the Booth mummy, I believe that the article done in the 1930s, when the doctors examined and x-rayed the so-called Mr. George, contains such vital statistics. Fred Black, the newspaperman that Henry Ford trusted to investigate the mummy theory, was very thorough over an extended period of time. His work does a lot to dispel the mummy theory, as does the work of others over the years. Even at the 1995 exhumation trial, the Green Mount Cemetery team made the Bates book look like a fairy tale -- which, in many ways -- it is, imo.

Steve · (This post was last modified: 07-18-2019 06:51 PM by Steve.)

For those of you in or near Michigan, you can go to Oakland University to view the Frederick Black papers about the George mummy and his investigation:

https://library.oakland.edu/archives/fin...U.SC.BLACK

Also, as Laurie would know, the Surratt museum also has a lot of documents relating to George, the mummy, and Bates as well.

L Verge · 07-18-2019, 06:56 PM

The Hall Center at Surratt House has at least one full drawer related only to David E. George. Several years ago, I believe our archivist helped me post on this forum a list of what folders are in the collection.

Steve · (This post was last modified: 07-18-2019 07:36 PM by Steve.)

Laurie here's your earlier posting about the file drawer:

(05-09-2019 12:32 PM)L Verge Wrote: I passed a request on to our archivist at the Hall Research Center, and here is her reply:

Oh my goodness….. Mr. Hall has an entire file drawer on David E. George.

Here’s the folders listing:

George-Booth Myth (David E. George binder #1, Oakland University files)
George-Booth Myth (David E. George binder #2, Oakland University files)
George-Booth Myth (David E. George binder #3, Oakland University files)
George-Booth Myth (David E. George binder #1, Oakland University files)
George, David E.
George, David E.--The Black Manuscript--Oakland University
George, David E.--The Hugh B. Ryan Alias
George, David E.--Enid Public Library
George, David E.--The Story of... by Diane McFarlane
George, David E.--Land Transaction
George, David E.--The Mummy
George, David E.--Pictures, Signatures
George, David E.--The Enid Booth Legend by Helen Jo Banks
George, David E., as Booth
George, David E.--Enid Daily Wave
George, David E.--Hoax, Deathbed Confession
George, David E.--Death of S. S.Dumont, Lee Boyd, Dr. R. A. Field
George, David E.--Miscellaneous

Don't expect an immediate report on David E. George as gathered by reputable historians in the field...

The Oakland University files pertain to Henry Ford's investigator, Fred Black, who spent a huge amount of time determining if the mummy was appropriate for the Dearborn museum or was nothing but a hoax. Since the mummy never made it to Dearborn, Michigan, perhaps it is safe to say that Henry Ford "didn't buy it" -- neither the mummy nor the hoax!

May we spare my overworked, part-time archivist the time of compiling an albeit brief summary of the story of David E. George and just "not buy it" ourselves?

Steve Whitlock · 07-18-2019, 07:32 PM

(07-18-2019 06:36 PM)L Verge Wrote:
(07-18-2019 04:08 PM)Steve Wrote: Too bad we don't know where the mummy is located exactly now. If we did, we could still measure its approximate size now.

I'm trying to respond to these posts while at home (where my personal books are out of reach) and am straining my aging memory. However, I believe that the accurate account (Rob Wick, where are you?) of Booth talking to his hands is that he asked to have his hands raised, and his request was granted. As for his ability to speak, James O. Hall explained that medically to us forty years ago, and it had something to do with him still having limited control of breathing.

Booth knew that the soldiers had identified him correctly, so he wasn't going to pretend any more. He was definitely his mother's favorite son, and he adored her, so it was very important to him that someone get word to her as to why he did what he did. Even dying, he still considered himself a hero by attempting to stave off the newly designed, central government and what ill effects it would have on the country.

As for the size of the Booth mummy, I believe that the article done in the 1930s, when the doctors examined and x-rayed the so-called Mr. George, contains such vital statistics. Fred Black, the newspaperman that Henry Ford trusted to investigate the mummy theory, was very thorough over an extended period of time. His work does a lot to dispel the mummy theory, as does the work of others over the years. Even at the 1995 exhumation trial, the Green Mount Cemetery team made the Bates book look like a fairy tale -- which, in many ways -- it is, imo.

Laurie Verge, as usual you are correct about someone raising Booth's hands, and I have that information, but was unfortunately going from an aging memory. From Wikipedia:

Conger tracked down Jett and interrogated him, learning of Booth's location at the Garrett farm. Before dawn on April 26, the soldiers caught up with the fugitives, who were hiding in Garrett's tobacco barn. David Herold surrendered, but Booth refused Conger's demand to surrender, saying, "I prefer to come out and fight." The soldiers then set the barn on fire.[143][144] As Booth moved about inside the blazing barn, Sergeant Boston Corbett shot him. According to Corbett's later account, he fired at Booth because the fugitive "raised his pistol to shoot" at them.[144] Conger's report to Stanton stated that Corbett shot Booth "without order, pretext or excuse," and recommended that Corbett be punished for disobeying orders to take Booth alive.[144] Booth, fatally wounded in the neck, was dragged from the barn to the porch of Garrett's farmhouse, where he died three hours later, aged 26.[139] The bullet had pierced three vertebrae and partially severed his spinal cord, paralyzing him.[20][143] In his dying moments, he reportedly whispered, "Tell my mother I died for my country."[139][143] Asking that his hands be raised to his face so that he could see them, Booth uttered his last words, "Useless, useless," and died as dawn was breaking.[143][145] In Booth's pockets were found a compass, a candle, pictures of five women (actresses Alice Grey, Helen Western, Effie Germon, Fannie Brown, and Booth's fiancée Lucy Hale), and his diary, where he had written of Lincoln's death, "Our country owed all her troubles to him, and God simply made me the instrument of his punishment."[146]"

Wikipedia wasn't the original source, as shown by footnotes, but the gist of it is:

"In his dying moments, he reportedly whispered, "Tell my mother I died for my country."[139][143] Asking that his hands be raised to his face so that he could see them, Booth uttered his last words, "Useless, useless," and died as dawn was breaking."

Yes, I'm saying that they knew he was John Wilkes Booth, and who his mother was, or they would have asked him who his mother was and where she was located.

Steve · 07-18-2019, 07:34 PM

In an interesting aside, according to this 1959 article about Black's investigation - Black actually visited the undertaker in Leadville, CO and asked him if the John Wilkes Booth who died looked like the image/photograph of John St. Helen but the undertaker couldn't identify him as the man he buried:

https://archive.org/details/assassinati00linc/page/n69

Steve Whitlock · 07-18-2019, 11:10 PM

(07-18-2019 07:34 PM)Steve Wrote: In an interesting aside, according to this 1959 article about Black's investigation - Black actually visited the undertaker in Leadville, CO and asked him if the John Wilkes Booth who died looked like the image/photograph of John St. Helen but the undertaker couldn't identify him as the man he buried:

https://archive.org/details/assassinati00linc/page/n69

I don't think Black was showing a daguerreotype and photograph of John St. Helen, but of John Wilkes Booth. The undertaker couldn't have buried David E. George/John St. Helen, who was still doing his mummy role on the fair circuits. So, the undertaker was being asked whether John Wilkes Booth who died and was buried in Leadville, CO in 1916 was the same John Wilkes Booth in Black's daguerreotype and photo.

Steve · 07-19-2019, 01:13 AM

(07-18-2019 11:10 PM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: I don't think Black was showing a daguerreotype and photograph of John St. Helen, but of John Wilkes Booth. The undertaker couldn't have buried David E. George/John St. Helen, who was still doing his mummy role on the fair circuits. So, the undertaker was being asked whether John Wilkes Booth who died and was buried in Leadville, CO in 1916 was the same John Wilkes Booth in Black's daguerreotype and photo.

You're right, I guess I just didn't notice that the article had already expanded from Bates claims to other claims/issues. The phrase "photograph of the claimant" makes it sound like Black actually had a photograph of the Leadville JWB, though.

Steve Whitlock · 07-19-2019, 01:45 AM

(07-19-2019 01:13 AM)Steve Wrote:
(07-18-2019 11:10 PM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: I don't think Black was showing a daguerreotype and photograph of John St. Helen, but of John Wilkes Booth. The undertaker couldn't have buried David E. George/John St. Helen, who was still doing his mummy role on the fair circuits. So, the undertaker was being asked whether John Wilkes Booth who died and was buried in Leadville, CO in 1916 was the same John Wilkes Booth in Black's daguerreotype and photo.

You're right, I guess I just didn't notice that the article had already expanded from Bates claims to other claims/issues. The phrase "photograph of the claimant" makes it sound like Black actually had a photograph of the Leadville JWB, though.

Yes, he does. If so then we would want to see that photo of the Leadville, CO John Wilkes Booth. Perhaps it's in a collection for Mr Black's research.

Finis L. Bates states that John St. Helen went to Leadville in 1879, and from there to CA. However, we know he died in 1903, so if claimant is the 1848-1916 JWB that's after John St. Helen came and went his elusive way.

Steve · 07-19-2019, 02:19 AM

The facts that Black went to Leadville to investigate the JWB who lived there and that Bates mentioned Leadville, makes me wonder if Black learned about the Leadville JWB through Bates. Also if Bates knew about the Leadville JWB when he was making the claims about George in 1903. The 1880 Leadville directory is available on Ancestry and I couldn't find St. Helen listed there, though I don't know if he was supposed be there under a different alias. The Leadville JWB doesn't appear in the Leadville directory until 1889, having previously lived in Cheyenne, WY.

RJNorton · 07-19-2019, 05:05 AM

(07-18-2019 06:36 PM)L Verge Wrote: As for his ability to speak, James O. Hall explained that medically to us forty years ago, and it had something to do with him still having limited control of breathing.

Additionally, unless my memory is failing me, Dr. Blaine Houmes had an article in the Surratt Courier 10+ years ago that explained how soft sounds could still be uttered even if the vocal chords were paralyzed. I shall look for the article and post more if I can locate it.