Just read - no comments needed

[L Verge]

Whose Heritage? Public Symbols of the Confederacy: A new report from the Southern Poverty Law Center counts more than 100 monuments and symbols of the Confederacy have been removed nationwide since the Charleston massacre.

https://bit.ly/2Jmzj3W

The report goes on to identify 1728 others that still need to be destroyed.

[Rsmyth]

Why no comments? What this country needs right now is more symbols of diversity. In all this time since the end of the war people are still judged by the color of their skin. Removing these relics of the lost cause, slavery, racism is one small step towards the end of glorifying that painful part of our history. We should not be trying to drum up support for keeping these reminders for children, with slaves in their ancestry, to walk past on their way to Jefferson Davis High School.

[Gene C]

The solution to the problem is a change of heart, on both sides.
Until enough people are really interested in this change, we can not solve the problem.

[L Verge]

(06-07-2018 09:40 AM)Gene C Wrote:  The solution to the problem is a change of heart, on both sides.
Until enough people are really interested in this change, we can not solve the problem.

Correct Gene. Another solution to the problem is learning about and understanding our history and the mindsets of our ancestors - not destroying or ignoring them and thinking that the problems will all go away. That is the more progressive route that more intelligent people take.

[Rsmyth]

I view the German people's as both progressive and intelligent and there are no statues of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Goebbels gracing public squares in Berlin, let alone Nazi flags or other Nazi art. Public Nazi imagery was long ago destroyed, and swastikas were long since knocked off the walls of Nazi-era buildings. The only Nazi imagery you’ll find is in exhibits devoted to understanding the horror of the period.

Laurie, Gene, I believe this is the only side of the issue that is progressive and presents the history in an intelligent way.

[J. Beckert]

(06-07-2018 03:31 PM)Rsmyth Wrote:  I view the German people's as both progressive and intelligent and there are no statues of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Goebbels gracing public squares in Berlin, let alone Nazi flags or other Nazi art. Public Nazi imagery was long ago destroyed, and swastikas were long since knocked off the walls of Nazi-era buildings. The only Nazi imagery you’ll find is in exhibits devoted to understanding the horror of the period.

Laurie, Gene, I believe this is the only side of the issue that is progressive and presents the history in an intelligent way.

When you believe that your side of the issue (argument) is the only side that's progressive, you've tipped your hand Rich, and shows an unwillingness to compromise, which is what's needed in this case. An emotional attachment to the issue precludes any vision into the mores of the time that are much different than a 21st. Century view.

Comparing the Confederacy to the Nazis is grossly unfair. Southerners weren't killing blacks by the millions simply because they were black, as the Nazis did to the Jews and many others they deemed "undesirables". Gen Lee's own statement that "slavery is our greatest moral evil" puts that to bed. It's time the country dropped the white guilt narrative. It's an empty position, jammed down our throats by the media and it's getting very threadbare.

And if we're going to whitewash history, we have to erase any mention of Gen's. Ben Butler, Custer and Sheridan. Their conduct upon Southern civilians was reprehensible and it prompted Gen Lee's General Order # 73.

http://www.johnccarleton.org/BLOGGER/201...number-73/

More soldiers and civilians on both sides of the conflict died in greater numbers than slaves.

[L Verge]

(06-07-2018 05:51 PM)J. Beckert Wrote:  

(06-07-2018 03:31 PM)Rsmyth Wrote:  I view the German people's as both progressive and intelligent and there are no statues of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Goebbels gracing public squares in Berlin, let alone Nazi flags or other Nazi art. Public Nazi imagery was long ago destroyed, and swastikas were long since knocked off the walls of Nazi-era buildings. The only Nazi imagery you’ll find is in exhibits devoted to understanding the horror of the period.

Laurie, Gene, I believe this is the only side of the issue that is progressive and presents the history in an intelligent way.

When you believe that your side of the issue (argument) is the only side that's progressive, you've tipped your hand Rich, and shows an unwillingness to compromise, which is what's needed in this case. An emotional attachment to the issue precludes any vision into the mores of the time that are much different than a 21st. Century view.

Comparing the Confederacy to the Nazis is grossly unfair. Southerners weren't killing blacks by the millions simply because they were black, as the Nazis did to the Jews and many others they deemed "undesirables". Gen Lee's own statement that "slavery is our greatest moral evil" puts that to bed. It's time the country dropped the white guilt narrative. It's an empty position, jammed down our throats by the media and it's getting very threadbare.

And if we're going to whitewash history, we have to erase any mention of Gen's. Ben Butler, Custer and Sheridan. Their conduct upon Southern civilians was reprehensible and it prompted Gen Lee's General Order # 73.

http://www.johnccarleton.org/BLOGGER/201...number-73/

More soldiers and civilians on both sides of the conflict died in greater numbers than slaves.

Members of the Surratt Society will be able to read the contents of an original letter from one Union soldier to his folks back home describing the treasures of their march through Georgia and South Carolina. It is the featured article in the July issue of The Surratt Courier and comes from family papers.

[L Verge]

Rich - I know that I am breaking my own suggestion not to comment on the monument debacle, but I found your exact quote above lifted from an article that appears on http://www.vox.com: "... there are no statues of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Goebbels gracing public squares in Berlin, let alone Nazi flags or other Nazi art. Public Nazi imagery was long ago destroyed, and swastikas were long since knocked off the walls of Nazi-era buildings. The only Nazi imagery you’ll find is in exhibits devoted to understanding the horror of the period."

This got me to wondering if the symbols of Nazism were first removed by the German citizens themselves OR by the conquering Allied forces as they took over the country. My suspicion was confirmed in the same article: "Conquering armies banned the swastika immediately after the war -- In 1945, the conquering Allied powers took control of Germany and banned the swastika, the Nazi party, and the publication of Mein Kampf, Hitler's famously anti-Semitic text" source cited as Jean-Marc Dreyfus, Historian.

I also found the following in a 2017 article on Politico: "Tearing down the symbols of Nazi terror was a necessary first step -- but it didn't ensure overnight political or cultural transformation. It required a longer process of public reconciliation with history for Germans to acknowledge their shared responsibility for the legacy of Nazism." Please pay close attention to the meaning of that last sentence -- especially "shared responsibility."

And finally, back to the first article on vox.com, I am especially pleased to quote from Condoleezza Rice, a woman that I admire very much: Ms. Rice was being interviewed on Fox News and was asked if she wanted the South to erase the past by taking down the monuments to Confederate leaders. "I am a firm believer in 'keep your history before you,' she told the hosts. So I don't actually want to rename things that were named for slave owners. I want us to have to look at those names and realize what they did and be able to tell our kids what they did and for them to have a sense of their own history."

Her response reminded me of a situation that occurred at Surratt House Museum about fifteen years ago. At that time, we had the rather universal symbol of the crossed Union and Confederate (battle flag}flags displayed on our entrance sign. A complaint was filed with the Director of Parks and Recreation, the government agency that owns our museum. A woman complained about the Confederate image.

Our county director was a very talented and respected black woman who had worked her way up the ladder of the agency (which is quite large) from working at community centers, etc. Her response to the woman was, "That flag is part of your history also..." That's the core of the argument that I will continue to preach about educating oneself to all of one's history.

Getting personal - I was born into a military family that understood desegregation of the forces, a family who ran the local store and enjoyed talking with all the citizens, a family who owned two tenant farms and took care of the tenants when they needed transportation to doctors, repairs, and other things. I walked up and down aisles of tobacco following the auctioneer and watching my mother negotiate higher prices so that her tenants (who got 60% of the profits) would have a better winter -- we also supplied their house, their equipment, and the fertilizer. I then became a teacher the same year that my Maryland county desegregated its schools and went through years of busing. And, I continue to live in my home county, which is now predominantly black and is the richest African American county in the nation. Trust me, I am just as American as everyone else; but I hope to one day see our differences heal without the obstruction of the race card - and I don't believe that will magically happen because we destroy monuments and rename buildings and streets.

[Rsmyth]

Tipped my hand Joe? I think my stand on the issue has been well documented. And comparing the confederacy to nazi germany grossly unfair? Let's see; six million Jews loaded on to train cars for the final destination. Four million slaves crowded onto boats and shipped to the U.S. where all men are created equal, only to have families ripped apart on the auction block never to be reunited and sold into slavery only to be raped, beaten and lynched. Six million, four million; ok, say maybe 1/3 less guilty. I know Lauries position and why but Joe, why do you continue to idealize the confederacy?

[Wild Bill]

Rich Smyth,

You Yankees need to read a little book called Complicity:How the North Promoted, Prolonged, and Profited from Slavery, by Anne Farrow, Joel Lang, and Jennifer Frank (New York: Ballentine, 2006), and get a little reality in your life.

Wilder than usual Bill

[L Verge]

(06-08-2018 06:56 AM)Rsmyth Wrote:  Tipped my hand Joe? I think my stand on the issue has been well documented. And comparing the confederacy to nazi germany grossly unfair? Let's see; six million Jews loaded on to train cars for the final destination. Four million slaves crowded onto boats and shipped to the U.S. where all men are created equal, only to have families ripped apart on the auction block never to be reunited and sold into slavery only to be raped, beaten and lynched. Six million, four million; ok, say maybe 1/3 less guilty. I know Lauries position and why but Joe, why do you continue to idealize the confederacy?

Rich - To state (unequivocally) that all four million slaves were brutalized is a slight stretching of the truth - even when we clearly understand that the institution of slavery is an atrocity. Of course, most understand that many civilizations throughout history have practiced the institution of slavery and still do.

I am sure that many service groups who are fighting against current situations would love your support. Or, closer to home, are you using your convictions to help with the poverty situations in the inner city, food banks, reading with students in schools and libraries to help them improve and become good citizens? Constantly preaching about the evils of slavery and trying to wipe out any vestiges of it on our landscape is not going to cure the problem. In fact, without education, preaching such stuff only tends to breed more violence and hatred.

I would also hope that you recognize the fact that all the sins of slavery cannot be heaped on the backs of white Southerners. From Africa to Europe to colonies in the Caribbean and South America, there was a chain of economic benefits being formed by many others before the enslaved even reached a Southern plantation. Have you checked your Yankee family tree for any ship captains or traders?

I make that last statement not as a personal insult to you, but as an element of the whole story that many of the naive protesters today need to ask themselves. How did my ancestors play a role in the institution of slavery in the U.S.? I'll bet that some people might be in for a rude awakening.

[Rsmyth]

The last two posters have made some "wild" assumptions. I was born in San Antonio and am fully aware of the norths complicity in the slave trade. But unlike the south the north has no memorials commemorating those responsible for the suffering. Brown Univ. whose founders John and Moses were two of the most prolific in shipping slaves from Africa, addresses this with every student entering the school acknowledging its background and has worked with civil rights organizations to create sensitivity classes which have been added to the curriculum. I have located the final resting place of almost every slave ship captain in Boston, Providence, Nantucket etc. and have never found a memorial in any cemetery honoring them. This is not a north/south issue Bill so please stop calling me a Yankee. The war ended along time ago, at least for most of us; except for the majority of posters on this site which is suppose to honor the actions of our most famous president, not every time someone mentions taking down a statue of Nathan Bedford Forest and that majority starts posting (with no comments needed), woe is me, they are trying to destroy the confederacy again! Laurie, Joe, Bill, you say I do look at things from both sides. How does the other side view, in a progressive and intelligent manner the display of confederate monuments when they are utterly offensive to African-Americans?

[Wild Bill]

I said it before. I am willing to take down all the Confederate's Memorials if the North will do the same with theirs. BTW, San Antonio was not really a Southern town but one dominated by Unionists, Germans and Hispanics and very pro Union. That word "progressive" has hidden snd still hides a multitude of sin.

[Steve]

I see there've been a bunch of comments on this "no comment" thread. Yesterday, I read a news story which has absolutely nothing to do with this topic, but I think might be useful to reflect on in regards to the discourse on this topic:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/exclus...ar-AAyiqIx

[J. Beckert]

(06-08-2018 06:56 AM)Rsmyth Wrote:  Tipped my hand Joe? I think my stand on the issue has been well documented. And comparing the confederacy to nazi germany grossly unfair? Let's see; six million Jews loaded on to train cars for the final destination. Four million slaves crowded onto boats and shipped to the U.S. where all men are created equal, only to have families ripped apart on the auction block never to be reunited and sold into slavery only to be raped, beaten and lynched. Six million, four million; ok, say maybe 1/3 less guilty. I know Lauries position and why but Joe, why do you continue to idealize the confederacy?

I don't idealize the Confederacy, Rich, I just think this fervor to remove statues and rename schools is misguided. A broad brush is being used to paint good men like Lee and Jackson. Men who, in violation of Federal Law, educated their slaves and were in an extremely small minority by doing so. Lee educated and freed his slaves before Lincoln's Emancipation. Lincoln himself thought highly of him. How anyone can disparage him is disgraceful to me.
Where was this witch hunt 20 years ago? Nonexistent, because the media wasn't jamming down our throats 24/7. Rebel flags, statues, etc. You'd think race relations were as bad as they were in the 1950's and they're not. We've had a black (2 term) President, for Pete's sake. Morgan Freeman made a great suggestion when asked about all this "racism" in the news - "Stop talking about it". The media likes to keep it front and center, so they won't stop talking about it.
I've worked in a High School the past few years and you'd be shocked how many seniors can't tell you who won the Civil War, but show them the Stars and Bars and they spew about racism because our liberal institutions jam it down their throats.
Where does it end, Rich? Lincoln dropped the N bomb during his debates with Douglas. Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. Do we remove all reference and images of them? You mentioned Nazis and these bans remind me of them - they banned books, guns and the like - just like what's happening here. Huckleberry Finn is banned is a lot of schools. It solves nothing and if anyone is offended by a statue or a book, they need thicker skin.