Lincoln's birthday

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thanks much, Roger, I tried to find info to no avail. It seems Abraham Lincoln visited his stepmother sometime later that year (after March 5, the latest date he wrote).

[Steve]

This book says the pages with the vital information written by Lincoln were torn out of the Bible by Dennis Hanks with copies being made by John D. Johnston and a grandson of Lincoln's stepmother.

https://books.google.com/books?id=wYmvvE...g=PA26&dq=

Although looking at the entries, it looks like John D. Johnston is where Lincoln copied most or all of the information in the Bible from.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(01-15-2017 09:06 AM)Steve Wrote:  This book says the pages with the vital information written by Lincoln were torn out of the Bible by Dennis Hanks with copies being made by John D. Johnston and a grandson of Lincoln's stepmother.

https://books.google.com/books?id=wYmvvE...g=PA26&dq=

Although looking at the entries, it looks like John D. Johnston is where Lincoln copied most or all of the information in the Bible from.

My understanding is that it was John D. who copied, not v.v.:
   
How/why should John D. have been the source of Lincoln's date of birth? Probably the bible entry was a joint venture, each adding his personal family data, Lincoln on the Lincolns, and John D. J. on the Johnstons.

Ed Steers (who wrote the book you linked to) is a forum member - maybe he could kindly comment?

[Ed Steers]

(01-15-2017 02:47 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(01-15-2017 09:06 AM)Steve Wrote:  This book says the pages with the vital information written by Lincoln were torn out of the Bible by Dennis Hanks with copies being made by John D. Johnston and a grandson of Lincoln's stepmother.

https://books.google.com/books?id=wYmvvE...g=PA26&dq=

Although looking at the entries, it looks like John D. Johnston is where Lincoln copied most or all of the information in the Bible from.

My understanding is that it was John D. who copied, not v.v.:

How/why should John D. have been the source of Lincoln's date of birth? Probably the bible entry was a joint venture, each adding his personal family data, Lincoln on the Lincolns, and John D. J. on the Johnstons.

Ed Steers (who wrote the book you linked to) is a forum member - maybe he could kindly comment?

---

(01-16-2017 09:33 AM)Ed Steers Wrote:  

(01-15-2017 02:47 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(01-15-2017 09:06 AM)Steve Wrote:  This book says the pages with the vital information written by Lincoln were torn out of the Bible by Dennis Hanks with copies being made by John D. Johnston and a grandson of Lincoln's stepmother.

https://books.google.com/books?id=wYmvvE...g=PA26&dq=

Although looking at the entries, it looks like John D. Johnston is where Lincoln copied most or all of the information in the Bible from.

My understanding is that it was John D. who copied, not v.v.:

How/why should John D. have been the source of Lincoln's date of birth? Probably the bible entry was a joint venture, each adding his personal family data, Lincoln on the Lincolns, and John D. J. on the Johnstons.

Ed Steers (who wrote the book you linked to) is a forum member - maybe he could kindly comment?

I am not clear on what the controversy is - however, Lincoln made all the entries in the family Bible. Before Dennis Hanks removed the page, John D. Johnston made a copy that he kept in a ledger book that he took to Arkansas. Dennis Hanks's daughter "inherited" the original page from Dennis and gave it to Jesse Weik when he helped Herndon write his biography of Lincoln. John J. Hall (grandson of Lincoln's step-mother) also made a copy of the page. The Hall copy was published in 1879 in "The History of Coles County." I discuss all of this in my Lincoln Herald article "Nancy Hanks. West Virginian" with citations suppoprting the above (vol. 100, no. 2 Summer 1998, pp.64-65).

[STS Lincolnite]

(01-12-2017 03:38 PM)Steve Wrote:  Typically a sheriff would deputize somebody and they would go house to house taking the census. The date on the 1850 census is November 7th, so if he was on the circuit then presumably Mary would have given the information. If he was home, they could've given the census taker the information together.

The responsibility for taking the census was that of the U.S. Marshals until the 1880 census (in an 1879 act the marshals were replaced by specially trained and hired census takers). A Marshal would appoint a deputy to conduct the census in a local neighborhood, town/village, district, etc. depending on where the census was to be taken. That deputy was to be a local person who had familiarity with the people of the given community and had to swear an oath. I suspect there was little training and instruction on how to gather the information even if this was officially to be the case. The information was not necessarily even given by a family member (although it was preferred). See the following from the instructions for the 1850 census (underlines are mine):

“Section 10. And be it further enacted, That each assistant, when duly qualified in manner aforesaid, shall perform the service required of him, by a personal visit to each dwelling-house, and to each family, in the subdivision assigned to him, and shall ascertain, by inquiries made of some member of each family, if any one can be found capable of giving the information. but if not. then of the agent of such family, the name of each member thereof, the age and place of birth of each, and all the other particulars specified in this act, the tables thereto subjoined, and the instructions of the Secretary of the Interior; and shall also visit personally the farms, mills, shops, mines, and other places respecting which information is required, as above specified, in his district, and shall obtain all such information from the best and most reliable sources ; and when, in either case, the information is obtained and entered on the tables, as obtained, til the same is complete, then such memoranda shall be immediately read to the person or Persons furnishing the facts, to correct errors and supply omissions, if any shall exist.”

There is a full document on those instructions that can be found here:
https://www.census.gov/history/www/throu...tions.html

The main reasons for taking the census I think were two fold – taxation purposes and to determine the apportionment of Congressional representatives. Though the other information was taken, it was not the considered as important at the time (especially at the local level where the census was actually taken) and I highly doubt much if any time was taken to verify anything. As has been stated there were plenty of individuals who just didn’t know when or where they were born so whatever information was given was just accepted. There was a fine of $30 that could be levied against anyone who knowingly gave inaccurate information but I doubt that was ever strictly enforced (and would probably be hard to prove anyway). It is also worth remembering that 1850 saw a radical change in the amount of information that was gathered in the census. It was a new process so inaccuracies were bound to be present.

Speaking on the case of the Lincoln’s we can’t assume that either Abraham or Mary were the ones that provided the information. If neither was available when the census taker came, it could have been a domestic servant, or a neighbor that provided the information or, depending on who the census taker was, that person could have just put in an estimate of the Lincoln’s ages if he knew them well enough. The less time spent for the census taker the better for them and they got to get that paperwork done!

In studying my own family history, the information (ages as well as other information) on the census can go from pretty accurate to wildly inaccurate from census to census. Census records are good and more reliable with respect to location, and a good place to start from on other information but are frankly not all that reliable with that other info. There is one census record I looked at that all the people's ages ended either in a 5 or 0. Someone took it upon themselves to estimate and just round to the 5s!

All that being said, I have no doubt that Mary would not be above “fudging” her age if it was in fact her that did report to the census taker. As far as Abraham goes, I think that anything that gives his date of birth and is written in his own hand is the best and most accurate source we can hope to get.

[ELCore]

(01-16-2017 10:56 AM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  In studying my own family history, the information (ages as well as other information) on the census can go from pretty accurate to wildly inaccurate from census to census.

That's my experience, too.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thank you, Dr. Steers, for clarifying and adding some interesting details!
And the same thanks to you, Scott, for a great, informative post! I totally agree on your last passage! Actually one of the "big" Mary biographers (I think Jean Baker, unfortunately cannot check) listed Mary's age discrepancies and blamed her for cheating. You post now makes me think this wasn't necessarily the way it was - I wonder if the said biographer knew of the census taking procedure. I cannot remember if there was any oral or written statement by Mary herself wherein she made herself younger - does anyone happen to know? If it had always been an "agent of such family" this would have been quite the compliment...

[Steve]

I'll check out Ed Steers' article in the Lincoln Herald. I also want to clarify that I think Lincoln's source for the Johnston information, at least, was his step-brother John D. Johnston (who's second marriage is the last event recorded by Lincoln). Looking at Ed's post and then some family trees online, he had a son of the same name born in 1854. So I seem to have been mistaken in thinking John D. the father made the copy of the Bible record instead of his son with the same name.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Steve, as I posted before, I, too, would think Johnson D. the (oral) source of the Johnston part (written in Lincoln's hand).

[Ed Steers]

Like most of you, events like the "Minor Affair" have always fascinated me. I seem to be attracted to frauds and enjoy trying to debunct them or write about them (hence my "Hoax" book and "Lincoln Legends"). I do not mean to tout my publications, but I devote a chapter to the "Minor Affair" in "Lincoln Legends" after reading how so many Lincoln scholars believed the letters authentic without researching many of the obvious internal discrepancies. Paul Angle took on the mighty while still a young man and debunked the whole affair; a rather courageous thing at such an early stage in his career. I was fortunate enough to acquire all four of the Atlantic Monthly magazines many years ago. I might also mention that the Second Annual R. Gerald McMurtry Lecture by Don Fehrenbacher titled "The Minor Affair An Adventure in Forgery and Detection" was published as a pamphlet by the Louis A. Warren Lincoln Library and Museum in 1979. It is an excellent source for those of you interested in the "affair."

[Steve]

Looking at Lincoln's collected works for anything that mentions his age prior to 1850, I found this May 26, 1830 petition signed by Lincoln as a "qualified voter" in Decatur, Illinois. The voting age in Illinois at the time was 21.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln/linc...w=fulltext

[RJNorton]

Thanks, Ed. I have always found the "Minor affair" fascinating. Your book is terrific - I think my favorite character is "Coughdrop Joey" Ratto.

And thanks for finding that, Steve. I was curious who Parmenius Smallwood was as I had never heard of him. But I was surprised to find him, along with an old photo, in Find A Grave.
Hopefully folks with younger eyes than me can tell what Deborah Smallwood looked like.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(01-16-2017 09:40 PM)Steve Wrote:  Looking at Lincoln's collected works for anything that mentions his age prior to 1850, I found this May 26, 1830 petition signed by Lincoln as a "qualified voter" in Decatur, Illinois. The voting age in Illinois at the time was 21.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln/linc...w=fulltext

Good idea to ckeck this, and one valid argument! (Just curious - in order to qualify I wonder how age was proven in those days? If someone couldn't come up with a birth certificate?)

(01-17-2017 05:01 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Hopefully folks with younger eyes than me can tell what Deborah Smallwood looked like.

Roger - I don't know but guess W.H. Mumler took the photo...

[Ed Steers]

(01-17-2017 05:01 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Thanks, Ed. I have always found the "Minor affair" fascinating. Your book is terrific - I think my favorite character is "Coughdrop Joey" Ratto.

And thanks for finding that, Steve. I was curious who Parmenius Smallwood was as I had never heard of him. But I was surprised to find him, along with an old photo, in Find A Grave.
Hopefully folks with younger eyes than me can tell what Deborah Smallwood looked like.

Dear Roger, "Coughdrop Joey" Ratto is only one of several wonderful characters in the assassination story. When I joined the Lincoln Group of D.C. back in the 1970s a fine gentleman, named Elmer Stein, came up to me and shook my hand. He said, "You just shook the hand of the man who shook the hand of the man that held John Wilkes Booth's horse behind Ford's Theatre." Elmer was a retired D.C. fireman and worked out of a station house not far from Ford's. He told that on one very hot August night an elderly black man came into the station and asked if he could have a drink of water. Elmer said "of course" and showed him the water tap. After taking a long drink the fellow thanked Elmer. He then told Elmer he was the young boy that held Booth's horse the night of the assassination. He then leaned over and showed Elmer a noticeable scar on the top of his head where he said Booth hit him with the butt of his Bowie knife. He then shook Elmer's hand and wandered off into the D.C. night. Since that night when Elmer told me that story I have shaken the hands of dozens of people who shook the hand of someone associated with Abraham Lincoln. Always enjoyable.

[Steve]

(01-17-2017 08:02 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Good idea to ckeck this, and one valid argument! (Just curious - in order to qualify I wonder how age was proven in those days? If someone couldn't come up with a birth certificate?)

Basically, it was just the word of the voter, maybe an affidavit in some jurisdictions. Even though there's an element of self-interest in that, I still think it's more reliable than the 1850 census record from twenty years later that's off by a year. Especially in an era when birthdays weren't usually celebrated and a census taker just shows up at your door. But that still doesn't explain how Lincoln obtained the non-Johnston dates to inscribe in his father's Bible after Thomas Lincoln's death.

A few more stray observations on the Bible record:

- There's no marriage date listed for Daniel Johnston and Sarah Bush

-There's only a month and year listed for the marriage of Lincoln's sister and Aaron Grigsby, possibly indicating Lincoln was going off memory and not a written record for that event.

-Sarah's birth is listed as February 10, 1807, eight months after the June 12, 1806 marriage of Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hanks (which is a date independently confirmed by the marriage bond record).