Will the real Thomas F. Harney, PLEASE STAND UP!

[SSlater]

(04-12-2016 02:25 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Do you negate Mrs. Surratt's involvement in the transport of the field glasses and the messages on both April 11 and 14 regarding the "shooting irons?"

Touche'. I was careless. I hate to think she was hanged for delivering Field-glasses, apparently she was. The statement is true for Johnny and Sarah. Then never met Booth again after March 25.

[RJNorton]

(04-11-2016 10:11 PM)SSlater Wrote:  He returned to Washington and "leaked" the secret plan to George Atzerodt on April 8th. Booth could only watch for Harney, so when he didn't show by April 11th, he went back to New York, to report this new failure and maybe offer a new plan, to his superiors.

John, do you recall your source that says Booth traveled to New York on April 11th? As far as I know Booth was in Washington on April 11th and did not make a trip to New York on that date.

[SSlater]

(04-13-2016 04:51 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(04-11-2016 10:11 PM)SSlater Wrote:  He returned to Washington and "leaked" the secret plan to George Atzerodt on April 8th. Booth could only watch for Harney, so when he didn't show by April 11th, he went back to New York, to report this new failure and maybe offer a new plan, to his superiors.

John, do you recall your source that says Booth traveled to New York on April 11th? As far as I know Booth was in Washington on April 11th and did not make a trip to New York on that date.

RJN. I am not ignoring you, I'm Looking for the reference. But I am working on Harney too.

[SSlater]

RJN. I can't remember exactly what I was thinking when I said the "11th" but It had something to do with Booth looking for new orders. Booth knew Harney was coming, that's what Atzerodt told us, but Harney failed to show. Booth needed to know what happened. I assumed he got with the New York Crowd to work it out. I don't know if he made contact, but Time was running out - Did he create his own plan? and shoot.
I'm working daily to try to reconstruct exactly what Harney was planning to do. To do this I had to put my brain back into 1865. First off, Harney did not have Dynamite, - that did not come along until 1867. His only choice as Black Powder. (That does come near anything we had in WWII, or in our present battles.)
Black Powder burns harmlessly in the open air, but will explode when wrapped up tightly. If you leave a small hole, the bomb becomes a rocket - and will fly away. If Harney expected to "blow up the White House" he was going to need a good pile of Powder, maybe a ton or more, all wrapped up tight. He could not sneak that big a package
into the building and hide it, until Lincoln was positioned for the
detonation.
There was a time when I did the same kind of work, except I was removing explosives and traps before our Navy invaded an Island. Much later I went to school to learn how to keep a building from falling down. I have a Degree in Architectural Engineering. So, what would it take to "Blow up the White House"? MORE THAN HE COULD MANAGE!
Let's look closer at what Harney was noted for. It was said he was "GOOD" at mining bays and river in the South. But Harney was "EXPERT" at Land-Mines. His special skill was to detonate mines by Mechanical means. He did not need Fire or Electricity.
Just before Harney was brought to Washington he was in the Deep South, working to impede "Sherman's March to the Sea" ( He couldn't stop him), but when Sherman turned North for the fight in the Carolinas, Harney went to work and "Mined" the roads in front of Sherman. His work was effective. Sherman, in turn, got inspired and marched Confederate Prisoners in front of his advancing troops. Harney work was halted.
Thus, I believe that Harney was going to "land-mine" the White House. I don't know his plan, but he could carry all he needed in Back-Packs. We know that no explosives were found on Harney. Did they look in his canteen? That's just a guess, but you get my point. If he planted 4 to 6 +/-, small land mines, in the White House garden .(He being dressed as a gardener doing his job.) The White House was not fenced. (People slept on the lawn.) The mines are now well hidden, strategically placed, easily detonated - on command. Now, start the party, with the serenade , watch Lincoln, and when he is positioned BAM, it's all over.
I believe that the term "Mine The White House" was given to us by Atzerodt in his confession. "Land Mine" was a newly created word. Unfortunately he was not noted for his "Brain Power". He didn't know what this "Mine" meant. It is possible no one knew the meaning.
I am not changing any information that was passed down to us, I am
trying to understand what was being said. The "Mine" was intended to blow up a person, not a building.

PS I am trying to identify "our" Harney. I still have work to do, but I think I have a lead. It seems that "our" Harney spent his whole life in the Army - so, he does not show in the Census. I'm going through Army Rosters. No luck yet.

[RJNorton]

John, on p. 418 of Come Retribution it says:

"One of these 'projects' was a plan by Booth's New York associates to mine the Executive Mansion to kill Lincoln and others. An entrance had been found on the War Department side for use in planting the explosives. Men had come from New York to explore the project with Booth, and he discussed it with his Washington action group."

What caught my eye was the fact that Messrs. Tidwell, Hall, and Gaddy apparently believed the plan to blow up the White House originated in New York. I always thought it came from Richmond. I also think I read somewhere that besides scouting Seward's, Lewis Powell had previously scouted the White House. If true, did Powell do this on orders from New York?

John, do you agree that the bombing plan came from New York and not Richmond?

Who were the men who came from New York to discuss/explore the bombing plan with Booth?

[Wild Bill]

John, Don't forget to read Rick Stelnick's Dixie Reckoning before answering the New York question

[Gene C]

and Dark Union by Ray Neff

[L Verge]

John Stanton - You have done a tremendous amount of work on this. Thank you. Is there any possibility that the black powder was already in the city awaiting the arrival of Harney? I'm thinking the availability of a place of storage like the Van Ness Mansion, which we used to speculate on being a point of storage and departure for the kidnapped Lincoln at an earlier stage in the game. I believe it even had ready access to the water?

Back in the 1980s, I was able to put Tidwell, Hall, and Gaddy in touch with William Seale, a White House historian who wrote a great book on the Executive Mansion. He was able to tell us that the building had sewer pipes big enough for a man to stand up in, so the trio speculated that might be Harney's point of entrance.

If possible, please try to follow Bill's suggestion and read at least parts of Mr. Stelnick's Dixie Reckoning. It confused the heqq out of me, but it should not be ignored - especially in the realm of the New York crowd. Don't discount the Copperheads of New York; and since I'm always rooting for Judah Benjamin to be the bad guy in all this, he and those wealthy guys up North could be a dangerous combination.

[SSlater]

Thank all "youse guys", for adding to this post. I don't have all the answers, but I do have all the questions. Your help is most welcome.
Some more info for you to work with.
The Building West of the White house was once called The State Dept.
Before that it was "State, War and Navy Bldg. constructed in 1871, Before that is was "The War Dept." and Sec Stanton, (no relation TG) hung out in there. From other stories , you know that Lincoln walked from the White House to the War Dept. to get the latest news of the war. We need to review these fact because they impact on our current story.
The means of entry into the white House, for the bombing, was said to be from the "War Dept. end." Where was Lincoln's Office? On the 2nd floor, at the far end of the building.
If Harney was to bring the explosives in at the west end, he had to carry them the full length of the building.- I assume they meant to do that in the basement. (The more "I" plan to "Blow up the White House" the more illogical it becomes.) He couldn't get 30 to 40 people, each carrying up to 30 to 50 pounds of explosives, each, through the basement, in and out, unseen - unheard- without attracting any attention. (without spilling any) I don't buy it.
Actually, Harney never worked on a plan as big as this, as important, or as complicated. He was expert at digging a hole and dropping in a
bomb.
Next I will get to replies to comments and suggestions.
RJN This is only me talking, so I might be very wrong. I won't think less of someone if they don't believe me. That's why we are here.
I think that the plan originated in Richmond. It is possible that at the meeting between Davis and Stringfellow around the 1st of March - at Davis's request, Davis might have said "What can we do?" and Stringfellow said "I'll look'. Stringfellow arrived in D.C. on March 5 and spent the whole month there. (Scouting the White House?) We never learned anything about his task. He left Washington, with Booth's help and went down through MD on the Secret Line. Jones put him across the river.
WE are not really sure what the New York Crowd was responsible for. My first guess, They were the MONEY BAG, for the mission. With that reason, they had the right to "Approve". They would ask "Who will do it?', "will it be effective ?" "How much will it cost?"
Lincoln had more enemies in New York, than we can guess, because of his "control" and "handling" of the cotton market. These guys were making Millions, when wages were in single dollars. Here's a show stopper, it would not surprise me if we learned that Lincoln's Assassination, had nothing to do with the war and was exclusively associated with the New York Crowd making money. They wanted the war to Continue. Who Knows?
Lewis Powell's report of his findings could have started the mission, improved it, or was something completely different. But it would have been approved by New York, and Richmond
WHo came from New York to review the mission, I don't know, but it had to be some kind of a "Committee" that had an interest in the results. It could have been the guy who they wanted him to run the Mission. He said it would work, but he refused to do it. They then called the peon from Richmond to risk his neck.
Wild Bill and Gene. I have never read either book. I have been led to believe, by our fellow Boothies, that it was Hokum! I better read them for myself. Are there any Book-Lenders out there?
Laurie. Yes, the Black Powder could have been stored near-by even if it was only a small supply. Your "access to the water" - do you mean the Potomac? (The White House faces the Washington Monument, the Monument faces the Tidal Basin, and ther is lots of grass in between, I'd say 6 or 7 blocks from the Potomac. (You cant see the Potomac from the White House. Right?
I'm not going to challenge W. Seale (but I would like to talk to him), when was the sewer installed? When the White House was built, they didn't have "inside facilities." Servants carried bed pans'', or other. I have some floor plans of the 1862 White House, and they don't show "Baths". Also, there does not appear to be room for any. We had this discussion some time ago, maybe Roger and add directions to get there.
PS there are floor plans of the White House on Google. There are also new plans (2000 +/-) that show 35 baths.
I'm not getting research done - I gotta quit this s

---

That was supposed to end with "Small talk'. Leaving it like it was may lead you to believe I meant something else.
PS I don't know if it is a secret - but Laurie is sick and there is some concern. I hope she is fakeing it, she has earned a good rest.

[Gene C]

Problems with Neff's book, and I have read about Dixie Reckoning, is the lack of original documents - source material. Almost all of Neff's is typed transcripts of unseen source material. I've never heard of anyone who has seen the source material that Stelnick basis his book on.
I usually use the when I am not being serious. Neff's book has so many shortcomings that anything that might be of value gets lost.
I can't recommend it for serious study.

Personally I think the New York crowd that Booth meets with are northern rebels. Most rich business leaders are going to limit any contact with a hired assassin, so I haven't bought into that theory, yet.

[L Verge]

Franklin Park or Square, between 13th and
14th and I and K Streets, NW., originally was low
and marshy ground, and "there were a number of
springs upon it, the water being of most excellent
quality" (Washington Evening Star, 1888). The
Federal Government bought this square in
1829-32 and immediately piped the waters to the
White House and the State, War, Navy, and Treasury
Departments (Sessford, 1908, p. 300, 304;
Somervell, 1930, p. 612; Washington Evening Star,
1906). The springs, of course, had been in use for
many years prior to 1832, and as early as 1819 the
Government had taken steps to purchase them.
For 75 years, beginning in 1832, these famous
springs served Government and other nearby
buildings. In the 1880's the flow decreased somewhat,
possibly due to the digging and construction
of the foundation pits for some of the tall hotels to
the west and northwest of the square (Washington
Evening Star, 1912). The waters eventually
became contaminated and were condemned

See pubs.usgs.gov/circ/1977/0752/report.pdf This may be where Bill Seale got his information. It reads to me that water was being piped into the White House and adjacent buildings for other purposes besides "the pause that refreshes?" The full article gives the location and history of a good number of early springs in D.C. that no longer existed once the city grew. The rate of water flow through some of the pipes seem remarkable to me -- 60 gallons per minute, etc.

As for Dixie Reckoning, Wild Bill and I may be the only ones on this forum to have contact with Mr. Stelnick and to have read at least parts of it (in my case). The original that I read did have hundreds of citations, but I admit that some were quite spurious. After being threatened, both legally and physically, by the gentleman, however, I packaged up everything he had given me and shipped it back - my decision, not his demand. Remind me sometime to tell you the pitfalls of being in the history field and dealing with some bad "associates" in the field.

[RJNorton]

(04-19-2016 04:56 PM)SSlater Wrote:  The means of entry into the white House, for the bombing, was said to be from the "War Dept. end." Where was Lincoln's Office? On the 2nd floor, at the far end of the building.
If Harney was to bring the explosives in at the west end, he had to carry them the full length of the building.- I assume they meant to do that in the basement. (The more "I" plan to "Blow up the White House" the more illogical it becomes.)

John, several years ago I saw a program on TV that covered the Harney mission. It may have been on the Military Channel, but my memory is vague. I sure wish I had recorded it. The goal of the Harney mission was to enter the lower level of the White House with a black powder bomb. Thus, the bomb would be detonated below a main room. Apparently Harney felt the Cabinet would be meeting in one of these rooms, and by detonating the bomb below that room, Lincoln and his Cabinet would be killed. The floor of the room where Lincoln and others were meeting would collapse and all would be killed. As I recall the show had various diagrams of the rooms - it showed how the force of the blast would be directed upward and destroy the floor directly above the explosion. I searched YouTube for a video of this show and drew a blank. Like I said I wish I had recorded it as the description above comes from a very vague and aging memory.

[BettyO]

Quote:Remind me sometime to tell you the pitfalls of being in the history field and dealing with some bad "associates" in the field.

Amen, Sister Laurie - I too have had "run-ins" with a few "nut cases"....for some reason, it seems that the history field can be full of wackos!

[Wild Bill]

John Stanton got : thesis right on the money--no pun intended--when he wrote:

WE are not really sure what the New York Crowd was responsible for. My first guess, They were the MONEY BAG, for the mission. With that reason, they had the right to "Approve". They would ask "Who will do it?', "will it be effective ?" "How much will it cost?"
Lincoln had more enemies in New York, than we can guess, because of his "control" and "handling" of the cotton market. These guys were making Millions, when wages were in single dollars. Here's a show stopper, it would not surprise me if we learned that Lincoln's Assassination, had nothing to do with the war and was exclusively associated with the New York Crowd making money. They wanted the war to Continue. Who Knows?
Lewis Powell's report of his findings could have started the mission, improved it, or was something completely different. But it would have been approved by New York, and Richmond
WHo came from New York to review the mission, I don't know, but it had to be some kind of a "Committee" that had an interest in the results. It could have been the guy who they wanted him to run the Mission. He said it would work, but he refused to do it. They then called the peon from Richmond to risk his neck.

Stelnick identifies this New York group as descendants of the old original Dutch settlers of New York when it was New Amsterdam, primarily the DeMille family, better known by us today as the film directors, Cecil B. DeMille, jr and sr.

---

Sorry for my typing, it is Stelnick's thesis not : thesis

[BettyO]

Quote:Lewis Powell's report of his findings could have started the mission, improved it, or was something completely different. But it would have been approved by New York, and Richmond

OK, Bill - you've got me interested....Lew Powell's "Report"?! Never heard this before! What was Lew Powell's report and where/or in what institution is it housed? Can you please clarify?

Thanks!