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maharba · 01-25-2016, 10:42 AM

Thanks Rob for detailed analysis on this subject. And as you say, it wasn't necessary and did not enhance the Lemens 'cred' as anti-slavery advocates to produce cooked-up documents. As I look in history at all the machinations of Thomas Jefferson, it interests me more (than the Lincoln connection) to factor the Jefferson-Lemen Compact. Jefferson may have only coyly led Rev James Lemen on to believe there was an actual Compact, but really only hoped he could get Lemen and others to go out to Indiana Territory/Illinois and work against slavery. Or, it may be that latter-day 'experts' do not want it confirmed and understood that the same
Jefferson they use to create a 'separation of church and state', this same Jefferson observed NO such separation, and may have recruited and exploited Christian pastors to go out and meddle into Territory/State politics from a religious framework. If that really is the case. And would Lincoln, if he did learn of the supposed Compact, would he realize the fuller implications?

There is no doubt imo that Lincoln did travel as a lawyer with one or several Lemens, lodged with them in his travels, and at their house apparently several times in Salem ILL, and having very long late night conversations which must have been wide ranging. I almost agree, though surely I am no handwriting or Lincoln writing expert, I almost agree that the Lemens or someone they knew...recooked and rewrote up the Lincoln letter of March 2 1857. I believe, at this point, that the 1850 Lincoln knew all the particulars of SUCH a letter (except perhaps the Jefferson-Lemen Compact in its explicit terms), and that Lincoln could have written such a letter and acquiescing to all the themes and particulars in it. I say Lincoln 'could have' written such a letter, but I tend to doubt that Lincoln DID write that letter. My opinion may change, as I find more information.

I see Ida Tarbell quoted online...and quoting the Rev Lemen

“my travels as a gospel minister.. the first time I met (Lincoln) in Vandalia, in 1837, when he was a member of the Legislature...and both boarding at the same place, Mr. Lincoln and I were thrown together a great deal. Generally, for three nights every week, he was at my rooms until midnight.. I was frequently at Springfield on business or duty, and there Lincoln spent three or four evenings, generally at my rooms, every week"

Also the reminesces of Benjamin F. Lemen of Abraham Lincoln visiting several times at his family's house in Salem ILL. The sofa Lincoln slept on, donated to the Governor's Mansion, etc.

I believe these meetings between Lemen's and Lincoln certainly took place, the Lemen's may have exaggerated how good friends they all were. But, little doubt to me that they were all 'talkers' and exchanged many thoughts, histories, and various ideas. As you point out, Roger, it's significant they weren't at Lincoln's funeral, were not interviewed by
Herndon. And as you mention, Roger, no letters Lincoln TO Lemen, or in Day by Day. Since B.F.Lemen was appointed Indian agent, how would that work. One of his secretaries maybe sent Lemen a telegram or letter appointing him, I guess.

maharba · 01-27-2016, 12:15 PM

Doing some more checking online, I see a letter from
Abraham Lincoln TO Joseph Lemen, Sept 8 1860

Christies Auction
Autograph letter signed (Jno. G. Nicolay) to Joseph B. Lemen,
Springfield, Illinois, 8 September 1860.
$4,541 16 December 2004

Apparently the candidate (not elected anything, yet) Lincoln has hired John Nicolay as secretary answering letters and telling Joseph Lemen basically that Lincoln is not answering new questions on his positions.

RJNorton · 01-27-2016, 06:03 PM

(01-27-2016 12:15 PM)maharba Wrote: Doing some more checking online, I see a letter from
Abraham Lincoln TO Joseph Lemen, Sept 8 1860

I am sorry, marharba, but I am missing something.

First, the letter was written by John Nicolay, not Abraham Lincoln (as you noted later in your post). Second, I do not see this letter as proof of an acquaintance, let alone a friendship, between Lincoln and Lemen.

I will ask again - why did Herndon not interview Lemen if the two were really friends? Thank you for replying. Also, can you please reply to Eva's post here. Thanks.

Eva Elisabeth · 01-28-2016, 02:59 PM

Re.: "Second, I do not see this letter as proof of an acquaintance, let alone a friendship, between Lincoln and Lemen."

Same here. Probably every Tom, ***** and Harry in the city and state wrote the Republican candidate from Springfield - that's why Nicolay got the job in early June. His daughter Helen wrote: "My father, Mr. Lincoln's sole attendant, sat, when other duties did not engage him, at a desk toward one corner, answering in longhand such letters addressed to the candidate as required replied. They came in what seemed to the young man unconscionable numbers - as many as fifty a day at first; later, seven or eighty."

And a close friend, especially from the same city, would unlikely write - he'd just come along.

Anita · (This post was last modified: 01-28-2016 08:51 PM by Anita.)

(01-25-2016 10:42 AM)maharba Wrote: Thanks Rob for detailed analysis on this subject. And as you say, it wasn't necessary and did not enhance the Lemens 'cred' as anti-slavery advocates to produce cooked-up documents. As I look in history at all the machinations of Thomas Jefferson, it interests me more (than the Lincoln connection) to factor the Jefferson-Lemen Compact. Jefferson may have only coyly led Rev James Lemen on to believe there was an actual Compact, but really only hoped he could get Lemen and others to go out to Indiana Territory/Illinois and work against slavery. Or, it may be that latter-day 'experts' do not want it confirmed and understood that the same
Jefferson they use to create a 'separation of church and state', this same Jefferson observed NO such separation, and may have recruited and exploited Christian pastors to go out and meddle into Territory/State politics from a religious framework. If that really is the case. And would Lincoln, if he did learn of the supposed Compact, would he realize the fuller implications?

There is no doubt imo that Lincoln did travel as a lawyer with one or several Lemens, lodged with them in his travels, and at their house apparently several times in Salem ILL, and having very long late night conversations which must have been wide ranging. I almost agree, though surely I am no handwriting or Lincoln writing expert, I almost agree that the Lemens or someone they knew...recooked and rewrote up the Lincoln letter of March 2 1857. I believe, at this point, that the 1850 Lincoln knew all the particulars of SUCH a letter (except perhaps the Jefferson-Lemen Compact in its explicit terms), and that Lincoln could have written such a letter and acquiescing to all the themes and particulars in it. I say Lincoln 'could have' written such a letter, but I tend to doubt that Lincoln DID write that letter. My opinion may change, as I find more information.

I see Ida Tarbell quoted online...and quoting the Rev Lemen

“my travels as a gospel minister.. the first time I met (Lincoln) in Vandalia, in 1837, when he was a member of the Legislature...and both boarding at the same place, Mr. Lincoln and I were thrown together a great deal. Generally, for three nights every week, he was at my rooms until midnight.. I was frequently at Springfield on business or duty, and there Lincoln spent three or four evenings, generally at my rooms, every week"

Also the reminesces of Benjamin F. Lemen of Abraham Lincoln visiting several times at his family's house in Salem ILL. The sofa Lincoln slept on, donated to the Governor's Mansion, etc.

I believe these meetings between Lemen's and Lincoln certainly took place, the Lemen's may have exaggerated how good friends they all were. But, little doubt to me that they were all 'talkers' and exchanged many thoughts, histories, and various ideas. As you point out, Roger, it's significant they weren't at Lincoln's funeral, were not interviewed by
Herndon. And as you mention, Roger, no letters Lincoln TO Lemen, or in Day by Day. Since B.F.Lemen was appointed Indian agent, how would that work. One of his secretaries maybe sent Lemen a telegram or letter appointing him, I guess.

maharba,

The questions you asked (although I don't see a question mark) "The Jefferson Lemen Compact - Was it True", have been answered by both Roger and Rob. Any letters or other family papers showing a link to Lincoln were forgeries.

Other than Lemen's own statements and your belief that they may have crossed paths somewhere, there is no documented proof that Lincoln ever knew Rev. James Lemen Senior much less that they were good friends.

maharba, in your post #16 above, you state " And as you mention, Roger, no letters Lincoln TO Lemen, or in Day by Day. Since B.F.Lemen was appointed Indian agent, how would that work. One of his secretaries maybe sent Lemen a telegram or letter appointing him, I guess."

I would love for you to find a letter, telegram or email from Ĺincoln appointing B.F. Lemen Indian agent.

Lincoln appointed seven Indian Agents during his administration. Two were from Illinois. "Lincoln Looks West: From the Mississippi to the Pacific" by Richard W Etulain, pg 164
http://tinyurl.com/j4vc9nj

The two from Illinois were :

William P. Dole, from Paris, Illinois and Indiana. Appointed Commissioner of Indian Affairs.

James Short, friend from New Salem. Appointed Indian agent at Round Valley Indian Reservation in California.

In fact if you go here you will find the above names included in a long with "....list of close Illinois (or near-Illinois) friends and colleagues who were rewarded by President Lincoln for past loyalty is a surprisingly long one" Go here to see list. http://www.mrlincolnandfriends.org/insid...pageID=30& There isn't a Lemen on it.

Then you move on in post 17 trying to find a link between Lincoln and Joseph Lemen using letter written by John Nicolay to Joseph Lemen. Please see Roger's post #18.

So far that leaves us with no credible documentation that Lincoln was a friend of Lemen family members.

maharba · 01-29-2016, 06:26 PM

I am sorry, marharba, but I am missing something...
First, the letter was written by John Nicolay, not Abraham Lincoln (as you noted later in your post). Second, I do not see this letter as proof of an acquaintance, let alone a friendship, between Lincoln and Lemen.>

There is the reply of Lincoln's secretary. It may not signify the level of interaction (if any) between candidate Lincoln and the Lemens. But it is certainly worth noting. I would guess that the letter FROM Lemen to Lincoln was thrown away long ago.
Did it have any personals to Lincoln, did Lemen expect a secretary to reply, and address the letter not to Lincoln but to a secretary? I don't know. Now I'll ask you directly, Roger: what level of deception...exaggeration do you currently think is the case here? Did the traveling preacher Rev. B.F.Lemen at times meet and discuss various items, as he may have met Lincoln in their Illinois business travels?

Where did I find Lemen as an Indian agent you ask, Anita?
From an old clipping in a scrapbook, undated. And not the case, it now appears to me. I looked at other sources and online, and I can not verify Benjamin F. Lemen as being appointed Indian agent. Then I look back at Lemen April 1 1860 letter to Lincoln. Lemen was from Illinois but then in the Rocky Mountains (which I guess is Colorado), and Lemen concludes saying that "...all we need are...Indian treaties...
etc". Though it seemed reasonable to me that Lemen was later made an Indian agent, now I doubt that is the case. The various Lemen (brothers, cousins) preachers may have gone far distant in their 'missionary work', and some religious based dealings with various Indians. But that still is not 'being appointed an Indian agent" by Lincoln or the government. I'll keep checking. Now, I'll ask you the same sort of question, Anita, as I did Roger: is all this "we were good friends with Lincoln" stuff entirely just made-up? You did read the details that Lemen gave and that Lincoln visited, the sofa donated to the Governor's Mansion. It just doesn't seem rational to me that all that is pure wish fulfillment and fantasy by the Reverend Lemen's. Do you Roger and Anita conclude that: by debunking the Jefferson claims and the Lincoln letter as a forgery, do you conclude that the 'experts' actually meant to expand their 'findings of fraud'...and to say that Lincoln really never met the Lemens, never visited them, and that all the Lemen statements involving Lincoln also were hoaxes?

RJNorton · 01-30-2016, 05:01 AM

(01-29-2016 06:26 PM)maharba Wrote: Now, I'll ask you the same sort of question, Anita, as I did Roger: is all this "we were good friends with Lincoln" stuff entirely just made-up?

Maharba, IMO most, if not all, was created entirely, or at the very least, embellished and exaggerated. Historians have researched every detail of Lincoln's life, and Lemen is not included in the books I rely on for research. I think that lack of attendance at Lincoln's funeral in Springfield, the lack of any mention in The Abraham Lincoln Encyclopedia, the lack of an interview with Herndon, the lack of inclusion in the most detailed Lincoln biographies, the fact that the 1857 alleged Lincoln letter to Rev James Lemen Jr. has been found to be a forgery (and thus there are no letters), the lack of inclusion in Lincoln Day By Day, and Ida Tarbell's doubts are all most telling. Maharba, I have given time to try to prove you right on this...I have looked in many sources...but I have drawn a blank.

I don't doubt Lemen met Lincoln in Vandalia in 1837, as he (Lemen) said, but the rest of his story about the close friendship that developed is apocryphal, IMO.

Anita · 01-30-2016, 10:14 PM

(01-29-2016 06:26 PM)maharba Wrote: Now, I'll ask you the same sort of question, Anita, as I did Roger: is all this "we were good friends with Lincoln" stuff entirely just made-up?

Maharba,
I concur with Roger's answer to this question and his rationale. I have seen no evidence to support claims that Lincoln was good friends with Lemen family members.

Eva Elisabeth · 01-31-2016, 11:11 AM

Great and IMO very true reply, Roger. I think this goes for many similar claims and stories. Humans love to have their share in events, and time expands memory and wishful thinking becomes subjective "reality". And a long ago chance encounter or superficial acquaintance a close one or even a friendship. And newspapers love good stories. Expertise historians have studied matters long and from different angles and views to separate the wheat from the cuff, that's why I would like to encourage you, mahabra, to read good books, too.

RJNorton · 01-31-2016, 01:45 PM

(01-31-2016 11:11 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: I think this goes for many similar claims and stories. Humans love to have their share in events, and time expands memory and wishful thinking becomes subjective "reality".

Well said, Eva. Sometimes it seems everyone "wants a piece" of Lincoln, and even almost literally....in the years following the assassination approximately 25 men claimed (or were given credit) to have helped carry the stricken President across the street from Ford's Theatre to the Petersen House. Picture that!

Anita · 02-01-2016, 04:56 PM

(01-23-2016 09:01 AM)maharba Wrote: I see this info at an online site "If These Walls Could Talk",

No history of Salem would be complete without the history of the Lemen-Frakes House and the lives of the people who entered therein.

Benjamin F. Lemen was born in St. Clair County, Illinois in the year 1814, four years before Illinois became a state. He was the grandson of James Lemen, Revolutionary War officer and good friend of President Thomas Jefferson. James was also the founder of the first First Baptist Church in the State of Illinois..Rev. Lemen moved to Salem in 1842, the year of his marriage of..Rev. Lemen had his house built the year he moved to Salem in 1842..It is the oldest house in Salem today. The Lemens..were good friends of the Lincoln's and were frequently visited by Abraham Lincoln when he was in Salem. He spent the night with them on more than on occasion, one time being in June of 1849. He slept on the couch in the parlor, which he prefered. The couch is now located in the Lincoln Room of the Governor's Mansion in Springfield, Illinois..."

Last week I contacted the Illinois Governor's Mansion to inquire about the couch referred to above and cited the ttp://stephenphfrakes.angelfire.com/iLemenFrakesHouse.html website.
I received a call today from the Manager of the Governor's Mansion and was told the following: The Governor's Mansion could find no record of this couch. They had it researched by the Illinois Department of Historic Preservation and the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum. The result is that there is no record of the couch. They also stated that while Lincoln visited Salem there is no record of any visit to the Lemen House.

maharba · 02-01-2016, 05:11 PM

I am pleased to have the benefit of your opinion on this Roger, and Anita. I'll push it a little further and highlight that portion of my question and inference: that the past,
published 'experts' make their case that the Lincoln letter of March 2 1857 was a forgery and (other experts?) that there really was no 'Jefferson-Lemen Compact', they want to broaden that denial, it seems, that Lemen never knew Thomas Jefferson and that Lemen's grandsons never knew Abraham Lincoln on any personal terms. That thought/conclusion cuts across several areas of historical expertise. You have to have studied Jefferson, the history of Slavery particularly in the NW Territory/Indiana Territory/early Illinois, Abraham Lincoln, and the history and genealogy of the Lemen family. I have no personal interest in how this plays out, at all. No family connection, no personal interest in linking Jefferson to Lemen and his anti-slavery activities, it doesn't cut for or against Lincoln at this date if he was or was not close friends with Lemen's. I will continue to gather and assess information. But my current conclusion is that Abraham Lincoln early on acquainted himself with the early history of Illinois and slavery and the integral work of the Lemen's in making Illinois a free state. I think Lincoln really did, in his travels, meet and chat with Benjamin F. Lemen several times and for long hours at a time. I also think that Thomas Jefferson really did talk with Rev James Levi Lemon and suggest, even ask him (and others) to move out to the Indiana Territory and work to keep slavery from spreading there. Jefferson had odd, conflicting notions on slavery. Never really freeing his own slaves.

RJNorton · 02-01-2016, 06:22 PM

(01-23-2016 09:01 AM)maharba Wrote: The Lemens..were good friends of the Lincoln's and were frequently visited by Abraham Lincoln when he was in Salem. He spent the night with them on more than on occasion, one time being in June of 1849. He slept on the couch in the parlor, which he prefered. The couch is now located in the Lincoln Room of the Governor's Mansion in Springfield, Illinois..."

Kudos to Anita for the research she did on the couch! What she found is much more than her "opinion" as you stated, Mahabra.

Maharba, did you read her research?

L Verge · 02-01-2016, 07:23 PM

(02-01-2016 06:22 PM)RJNorton Wrote:
(01-23-2016 09:01 AM)maharba Wrote: The Lemens..were good friends of the Lincoln's and were frequently visited by Abraham Lincoln when he was in Salem. He spent the night with them on more than on occasion, one time being in June of 1849. He slept on the couch in the parlor, which he prefered. The couch is now located in the Lincoln Room of the Governor's Mansion in Springfield, Illinois..."

Kudos to Anita for the research she did on the couch! What she found is much more than her "opinion" as you stated, Mahabra.

Maharba, did you read her research?

Maharba, do you read anyone's research? I am not a Lincoln expert, but you are taunting some of the best scholars and researchers on the subject. Yet, you usually refuse to accept their findings. Is there an ultimate purpose or goal to your strategy? To me, it's getting old and boring to watch you attempt to play games with history.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 02-02-2016 06:03 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(02-01-2016 04:56 PM)Anita Wrote:
(01-23-2016 09:01 AM)maharba Wrote: I see this info at an online site "If These Walls Could Talk",

No history of Salem would be complete without the history of the Lemen-Frakes House and the lives of the people who entered therein.

Benjamin F. Lemen was born in St. Clair County, Illinois in the year 1814, four years before Illinois became a state. He was the grandson of James Lemen, Revolutionary War officer and good friend of President Thomas Jefferson. James was also the founder of the first First Baptist Church in the State of Illinois..Rev. Lemen moved to Salem in 1842, the year of his marriage of..Rev. Lemen had his house built the year he moved to Salem in 1842..It is the oldest house in Salem today. The Lemens..were good friends of the Lincoln's and were frequently visited by Abraham Lincoln when he was in Salem. He spent the night with them on more than on occasion, one time being in June of 1849. He slept on the couch in the parlor, which he prefered. The couch is now located in the Lincoln Room of the Governor's Mansion in Springfield, Illinois..."
Last week I contacted the Illinois Governor's Mansion to inquire about the couch referred to above and cited the ttp://stephenphfrakes.angelfire.com/iLemenFrakesHouse.html website.
I received a call today from the Manager of the Governor's Mansion and was told the following: The Governor's Mansion could find no record of this couch. They had it researched by the Illinois Department of Historic Preservation and the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum. The result is that there is no record of the couch. They also stated that while Lincoln visited Salem there is no record of any visit to the Lemen House.

Absolutely great, outstanding research, Anita - thank you so much for doing this. And for me as for the close acquaintance being embellished this means q. e.d. (quod est demonstrandum).