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HerbS · 09-05-2012, 08:15 PM

ninabeth13---You hit the nail right on the head.Great insight!

Craig Hipkins · 09-05-2012, 10:04 PM

It is interesting to speculate how Lincoln's life would have turned out had Nancy Hanks not died from the milk-sickness. I don't believe that he ever would have become president, or for that matter have gotten into politics. One of the main reasons that Lincoln struck out on his own instead of staying around his family like most people did in those days was because of his poor relationship with his father. Perhaps, had Nancy lived into old age, Lincoln would have been reluctant to venture farther than the borders of Indiana, Kentucky or Illinois. He might have ended his days as an obscure shop clerk somewhere.

Craig

RJNorton · (This post was last modified: 09-06-2012 05:12 AM by RJNorton.)

Hi Craig. An absolutely fascinating post regarding Nancy Hanks and milk sickness was made by Ed Steers. In case you have not seen it GO HERE.

LincolnMan · 09-06-2012, 08:13 AM

Apparently, he helped his father build his mother's coffin. That had to be hard!

ninabeth13 · 09-06-2012, 03:51 PM

Craig, excellent point and I agree completely.

I have read several biographies of Presidents, and many of them lost parents at a young age or were raised by a single parent, including Washington, Jackson and more recently Clinton and Obama.

Extreme adversity can make people stronger. The tragedy of young Nancy Hanks' death turned into a blessing for the American people.

Craig Hipkins · 09-06-2012, 09:52 PM

(09-06-2012 05:06 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Hi Craig. An absolutely fascinating post regarding Nancy Hanks and milk sickness was made by Ed Steers. In case you have not seen it GO HERE.

Roger,

Fascinating! I don't know how I missed Ed Steers post on this. What he argues makes good sense to me.

Craig

J. Beckert · 09-06-2012, 10:29 PM

Lincoln whittled the pegs that held the coffin together with his penknife.

LincolnMan · 03-19-2013, 09:19 AM

It has been posited by some that Thomas Lincoln was abusive to young Abraham-including physically. Is this generally accepted as true? If so, I'm wondering if it was "common" in those days for father/son relationships? Was it more or less socially acceptable then?

RJNorton · 03-19-2013, 02:50 PM

The story I am most familiar with is the one in which young Abe would be sitting on a fence. As strangers passed, he would strike up conversations with them out of curiosity. Abe would ask questions about the world. Thomas would react to Abe's behavior by knocking him off the fence. I do not know how true this story is, but I have seen it fairly frequently in Lincoln literature (with some variations of the details from book to book).

Liz Rosenthal · 03-19-2013, 04:40 PM

I don't understand why Lincoln not losing his mother would have kept him from striking out on his own or made him less ambitious. It would be impossible to know what sort of impact Nancy Hanks would have had on him had she lived, especially since any information about her is sketchy. In fact, Lincoln's own memory of his mother is sketchy, at best.

Let's not forget that he had a fine step-mother, Sarah Bush Johnston. It seems that she filled all of Lincoln's needs for a mother. She loved him more than she loved her biological children; she encouraged him every way she could. And yet he still struck out on his own once he was able to make sure that his mother and step-father were all set up in Illinois, to which they had moved from Indiana in 1830.

Even if Nancy had lived, Lincoln's father would have been the same guy he always was, presumably-- someone Lincoln could not get along with or respect.

The way I look at it, the quality of Lincoln's brilliant mind was the determining factor in his decision to "seek his fortune" elsewhere. In other words, he needed to see what he could do with his brain. He had decided early on, apparently, that he did not want to follow in the footsteps of his father and their distant neighbors in Indiana by devoting his life to manual labor. But he never lost his affection for the "plain people," of whom he was one, even if he couldn't stand his father. And this latter point accounts for his success in politics. He loved the "plain people," and they loved him back.

(09-05-2012 10:04 PM)Craig Hipkins Wrote: It is interesting to speculate how Lincoln's life would have turned out had Nancy Hanks not died from the milk-sickness. I don't believe that he ever would have become president, or for that matter have gotten into politics. One of the main reasons that Lincoln struck out on his own instead of staying around his family like most people did in those days was because of his poor relationship with his father. Perhaps, had Nancy lived into old age, Lincoln would have been reluctant to venture farther than the borders of Indiana, Kentucky or Illinois. He might have ended his days as an obscure shop clerk somewhere.

Craig

GARY POPOLO · 03-19-2013, 08:33 PM

(09-04-2012 08:45 AM)HerbS Wrote: Great information Donna,I think both of your reasons are correct.I had a terrible relationship with my father and had to "drag"myself to his funeral.But,I did have support of my wife!

Herb, I agree with you and Donna. I also had a bad relationship with my father. I had not seen him for over 30 years and then one day I received a letter from him to believe it or not to borrow money. I am not sure why but I sent him the money. Then about a year later I receive a call from a hotel in Florida that he passed away. Since that day he was on my mind alot. I often ask myself what I could have done to make things better between us. I wonder if Lincoln ever had those thoughts? Best Gary

LincolnMan · 03-19-2013, 10:56 PM

Gary: my heart was touched by your story. I'm glad you showed him that kindness. How short life is!

GARY POPOLO · 03-20-2013, 09:35 PM

(03-19-2013 10:56 PM)LincolnMan Wrote: Gary: my heart was touched by your story. I'm glad you showed him that kindness. How short life is!

Thank you for listening Bill. As I get older I think of all the things both he and I missed doing. But as you said life is short so I try to live well with my family and carry on. Life is good. Thanks again Bill. Best Gary

Larry Mansch · 03-20-2013, 09:54 PM

It appears that Abraham and Mary did not invite Thomas to their wedding. As far as I know Thomas never met Mary nor any of the kids - even though they did not live very far apart.

tblunk · (This post was last modified: 03-21-2013 11:52 AM by tblunk.)

Interesting thoughts, Liz. I agree that we really don't have much to go on, and that it's impossible to know what "would have been".

I will say that although Sarah Bush Johnston was a fine step-mother, she was just that. A step-mother, not his "real" mother. And she brought along more kids to crowd into a log cabin. What effects this had on Lincoln is hard to say.

As for his father, when he married Nancy he was a fairly prosperous young guy. Bought a farm. Lost part of it. Sold the rest at a loss. Bought another farm. Lost it completely. Moved to the wilderness away from most of his friends and family, and after a couple of years of what must have been back-breaking labor, his wife dies.

There is a lot of talk about how the tragedies of life affected Abraham. How about the ones that affected Thomas. I can't say I blame the guy for losing any ambition he might have once had.

(03-19-2013 04:40 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote: I don't understand why Lincoln not losing his mother would have kept him from striking out on his own or made him less ambitious. It would be impossible to know what sort of impact Nancy Hanks would have had on him had she lived, especially since any information about her is sketchy. In fact, Lincoln's own memory of his mother is sketchy, at best.

Let's not forget that he had a fine step-mother, Sarah Bush Johnston. It seems that she filled all of Lincoln's needs for a mother. She loved him more than she loved her biological children; she encouraged him every way she could. And yet he still struck out on his own once he was able to make sure that his mother and step-father were all set up in Illinois, to which they had moved from Indiana in 1830.

Even if Nancy had lived, Lincoln's father would have been the same guy he always was, presumably-- someone Lincoln could not get along with or respect.

The way I look at it, the quality of Lincoln's brilliant mind was the determining factor in his decision to "seek his fortune" elsewhere. In other words, he needed to see what he could do with his brain. He had decided early on, apparently, that he did not want to follow in the footsteps of his father and their distant neighbors in Indiana by devoting his life to manual labor. But he never lost his affection for the "plain people," of whom he was one, even if he couldn't stand his father. And this latter point accounts for his success in politics. He loved the "plain people," and they loved him back.

(09-05-2012 10:04 PM)Craig Hipkins Wrote: It is interesting to speculate how Lincoln's life would have turned out had Nancy Hanks not died from the milk-sickness. I don't believe that he ever would have become president, or for that matter have gotten into politics. One of the main reasons that Lincoln struck out on his own instead of staying around his family like most people did in those days was because of his poor relationship with his father. Perhaps, had Nancy lived into old age, Lincoln would have been reluctant to venture farther than the borders of Indiana, Kentucky or Illinois. He might have ended his days as an obscure shop clerk somewhere.

Craig