Mrs. Lincoln’s Salon: Her Form Inclines To Stoutness

[Anita]

Mrs. Lincoln’s Salon: Her Form Inclines To Stoutness

6PM, Thursday, November 12, 2015

Mary Todd Lincoln House; 578 West Main St., Lexington, KY 40507

$10 members; $20 non-members

Space limited. Reservations required.



The Mary Todd Lincoln House will host a salon titled Her Form Inclines to Stoutness at 6PM on Thursday, November 12th. While Mary Lincoln was first lady, observers frequently commented on her clothing and appearance. One New York newspaper famously wrote, “Her form inclines to stoutness.” But was Mary Lincoln “stout?” Was she attractive? Why did they care about the first lady’s weight and clothing? Why do we still care? Salon guests will examine Mrs. Lincoln’s appearance and explore the cultural expectations for women in the past and present with Eastern Kentucky University professor Dianne Leggett.

Her Form Inclines To Stoutness is a part of the museum’s evening salon series inspired by Mrs. Lincoln’s Blue Room salons. At the intimate White House salons, politicians, literati, and friends gathered to discuss politics, literature, and gossip. Salons at the Mary Todd Lincoln House are held in the parlor of the museum and explore special topics relating to Mrs. Lincoln and the present-day.


Space is limited. Reservations required. Admission $10 members; $20 non-members. The Mary Todd Lincoln House is located at 578 West Main Street in downtown Lexington. Free parking located directly behind the house. Call Gwen at 859-233-9999 for reservations or visit http://www.mtlhouse.org for further information about the museum

[maharba]

I still like all those dozens of gloves she bought later on a shopping spree. I just love good rawhide or kid gloves when I do chores, or work on a hot engine. The thin leather keeps your hands from being burned and you still have a good feel for what you're doing. And yes Mary was plump. She and Abe put you in mind of Jack Sprat and his wife. One could eat no fat, the other could eat no lean.

[Gene C]

(11-02-2015 08:35 PM)Anita Wrote:  Mrs. Lincoln’s Salon: Her Form Inclines To Stoutness

Space limited.

I guess she was stouter than I thought.

[Eva Elisabeth]

She used to purchase incredible amounts of sugar in Springfield - I wonder about the condition of her teeth! Also because of the respective remark in a letter to her in his Congress days I wonder if Abraham Lincoln perhaps preferred that kind of shape. On April16,1848, he wrote his wife: "I am afraid you will get so well, and fat, and young, as to be wanting to marry again. Tell Louisa I want her to watch you a little for me. Get weighed, and write me how much you weigh."
In France, Mary lost a lot of weight.

[RJNorton]

(11-03-2015 03:15 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  I wonder if Abraham Lincoln perhaps preferred that kind of shape.

But not too much, though. Ten years earlier (1838) he had written about Mary Owens:

"I knew she was over-size, but she now appeared a fair match for Falstaff...for her skin was too full of fat, to permit its contracting in to wrinkles; but from her want of teeth, weather-beaten appearance in general, and from a kind of notion that ran in my head, that nothing could have commenced at the size of infancy, and reached her present bulk in less than thirty five or forty years; and, in short, I was not all pleased with her."

[L Verge]

Wow! And we are left to believe that Abraham Lincoln was a kind and gentlemanly person? I'm going to forgive Stanton for his unkind descriptions of Lincoln.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(11-03-2015 04:45 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(11-03-2015 03:15 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  I wonder if Abraham Lincoln perhaps preferred that kind of shape.

But not too much, though. Ten years earlier (1838) he had written about Mary Owens:

"I knew she was over-size, but she now appeared a fair match for Falstaff...for her skin was too full of fat, to permit its contracting in to wrinkles; but from her want of teeth, weather-beaten appearance in general, and from a kind of notion that ran in my head, that nothing could have commenced at the size of infancy, and reached her present bulk in less than thirty five or forty years; and, in short, I was not all pleased with her."

Forgot about that...maybe he meanwhile had changed his mind? However, I think the "mindchange" is the best proof that he did love his wife as love makes everyone beautiful the way she/he is.

[Gene C]

I can't say for sure, but the dresses I've seen that were owned by Mary Lincoln and others that are reproductions, Mary Lincoln was not stout. Some of the actresses that have portrayed her create that impression, but if you look closely at her photographs, she is not a large woman. Her face does appear to have become rounder as the years pass, but that may be due to different hair style or the process of aging. We can easily see how the stress of the civil war years aged Abraham, it was also very stressful for Mary. With all the health issues Mary had, headaches, mood swings, it would not surprise me if she was also diabetic.

Look at these images of Mary, in some of these dresses it's hard to tell, but for the most part it appears she was a full figured woman, but not significantly overweight. Look especially at the dress in the Smithsonian.
https://www.google.com/search?q=mary+lin...ImCh0weAt_

Dress at the Smithsonian (second picture)
http://www.miamiherald.com/living/article1921759.html
That's not the waist line of a stout woman.

[RJNorton]

In her book entitled Mary, Wife of Lincoln, Katherine Helm gives Mary's weight as 130 in 1861 (p.175).

I have seen her height listed as either 5-2 or 5-3.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I agree, Gene (and of all First Ladies dresses I like Mary's the most because they looked so romantic, especially those with the flowers). I also think her shape and waistline exactly matched the fashion of those days (baroque?). Julia Grant's inaugural dress surprised me when I saw it reality - compared to her size, Mary's was XXS.

(11-04-2015 10:03 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  In her book entitled Mary, Wife of Lincoln, Katherine Helm gives Mary's weight as 130 in 1861 (p.175).

I have seen her height listed as either 5'2" or 5'3"

Thanks, Roger. Thus, even at 5'2'', her BMI was at 23,8 in the normal range under 25. (At 5'3", her BMI would have been 23.)
(Wasn't she down to 100 at the end of her life?)

[RJNorton]

Eva, yes. In his book, Dr. Evans writes:

"Some time after 1876 Mrs. Lincoln lost flesh. Her relatives in Springfield describe her as being thin as well as short. They give her weight in that period as a hundred and ten pounds or even less. B. F. Stoneberger describes her as small and thin, almost wizened. The New York description of her as she returned from Europe in 1880 would indicate that she was senile in appearance. At that time she was "little and thin, wrinkled and gray, and she looked like an old woman."

[Eva Elisabeth]

That means in the lowest case (100 at 5'2") she was underweight (due to a BMI of 17,7)!

[L Verge]

I have always considered Mary Lincoln of normal size for a woman of her day - and a mother of four by the time she reached the White House. If you think that women of that era were slender, frail little beings, think again. If you study photos of women from the Federal period through 1900, you'll find that they came in all shapes and sizes, just like they do today. And, it often depended on what contraptions were under their outside clothing as to what their shape and size might be.

Nice link here http://hubpages.com/style/History-Of-Womens-Corsets At Surratt House, the guides are always in authentic period clothing, and it is very interesting to the visitors. One of my staff members, Lindsey Horn, has recently given "show and tell" presentations on her costume and underpinnings to two separate groups (both men and women). Off comes the collar, off comes the belt, shed the over-hoop petticoat, twirl around in the hoop, and then lose it in order to get a full view of the corset and under-petticoats, then the chemise. Lift the hem of the chemise gently to display the pantalettes -- and that's as far as it goes.

Actually, Lindsey's shape would likely be frowned upon in the social world of the 1860s. She's 5' 10" or taller and very well-proportioned. She reminds me of my grandmother and her stories of growing up in the 1870s and 80s. She was also that height, weighed 120 pounds, had a perfect 18-inch waist, and required no corset. She was considered an ugly duckling in an age when it was better to be about 5'4" with a slightly rounded, hour-glass figure, enhanced by a corset. Her wedding gown and several dresses that she saved proved that she wasn't fudging about her size. And yet, her shorter and plumper sister was considered the popular one.

I don't remember such a fixation on women's sizes until Twiggy took to the runway in the 1960s. About twenty years ago, I saw a statement that so-so model and actress Elizabeth Gurley made about Marilyn Monroe. She declared that she would have killed herself if she was as fat as Marilyn! Guess which woman is still better known nearly fifty years after her death... Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

[Donna McCreary]

January 16, 1880, Mary wrote to her nephew Edward Lewis Baker. "Tell your dear Grandma, I have now run down to 100 pounds, EXACTLY."

Five foot two,
Eyes of blue,
100 pounds is not stout.

When examining the waist size of Mary's dresses, be aware that some of them were altered by family members and may not be the same size as when Mary wore them.

[Anita]

According to Joanna Johnston, costume designer for Steven Spielberg’s "Lincoln", when Mary was First Lady her waist was 30 in. and her weight 130 lbs.

"The challenge, she says, was that the First Lady and the actress charged with playing her did not resemble each other. “Sally [Field] was too thin. We needed to put some fat on her,” she says. Johnston found a dress at the Chicago History Museum and worked with collection manager Meghan Smith to measure it in detail. The pair discovered that the dress measured 30 inches on the inside of the waist. Johnston reported the figure to Field. “Sally went on a massive put-on-weight diet. She got her waist measurement up and then put on the corset, because I was looking for the measurement of the external waist of the corset on the body. I thought we’d have to pad her up, but she did it!”
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2013...ally-field

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(11-04-2015 10:03 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  In her book entitled Mary, Wife of Lincoln, Katherine Helm gives Mary's weight as 130 in 1861 (p.175).

I have seen her height listed as either 5-2 or 5-3.

"She was the bright belle from a wealthy family. She saw the greatness in him," says Taper, the world's leading Lincoln collector. "I think they're a great match." She looks big, but she was five-foot-four (to her husband's six-foot-four) with a 20-inch waist when corseted."
http://www.newsweek.com/hellcat-or-helpm...oln-100149