Laurie's daughter took a photo of Abraham Lincoln!

[RJNorton]

(08-29-2015 06:00 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Mary never called him like that either, did she? (Only "father", or "Mr. Lincoln" AFAIK, and "my dear husband" in letters.)

I have read this also. She never called him "Abe." Even his letters and telegrams to her were usually (possibly always; I have not checked every single one) signed "A. Lincoln."

[L Verge]

Could the space needed for engraving on the watch be a factor? "Abe" takes up much less space in an already lengthy engraving.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Of course anything is possible unless more is known factually, but "Abe Lincoln" is even longer than "A. Lincoln", which is, as Roger said, the usual way he signed letters etc., including those to Mary.

[RJNorton]

I decided to check the Rail Splitter website to see what is said there:

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"Dan Morphy offered an intriguing Lincoln item in his June 9th sale. It was represented as the pocket watch that Abraham Lincoln gave to Mary Todd as the time of their on-again off-again courtship, engagement and marriage. The catalog description read:

“This is a historical 18K Gold pocket watch that was presented to Miss Mary Todd while courting between 1839 and 1842. The inscription reads, ‘To Miss Mary Todd-A Token of my Everlasting Devotion and Affection – Abe Lincoln’. The watch was mentioned in Abe Lincoln’s archives. It was owned by the Todd family for a number of years, and then sold privately to Mr. Ready where it has been for the last several decades. The watch itself has a very elaborate gold design with three colors of gold to create flowers. The watch is not in working order, as it needs a new chain. The watch comes with a letter of authenticity from the North Missouri Historical Society, and a report from the EMTEC providing proof of the age of the inscription.”

There are a lot of “loose ends” associated with this watch, besides the fact that no provenance from the time of its presentation or shortly thereafter came with the lot. The biggest “blip” is that Lincoln never referred to himself as “Abe”. That nickname lacked dignity and propriety. He never signed any of his letters or documents in that manner.

What exactly are “Abe Lincoln’s archives?” A specific notation would help. The letter from Fred Schwartz, the “senior metallurgical engineer” at EMTEC of Denver asserts that the “engraving is not of recent origin.” Fine.. all that means is that the engraving wasn’t done in the last twenty years. It tells you when it “wasn’t” done, not when it “was” done.

The letter of authenticity from Jerry L. Davis on the letterhead of the “North Missouri Historical Society” of Kahoka, Missouri is a joke. A search on google for “North Missouri Historical Society” comes back with no results. There are historical societies in Kahoka, but not this one. Mr. Davis makes all sorts of wild claims, including that he owns the only COMPLETE copy in Lincoln’s hand of the Emancipation Proclamation, that he owns a pen that Lincoln carried and used from 1858 until his death and which was used exclusively for all the documents he composed, that he owns a marble desk set given to Lincoln in 1864 by the City of New York, and that he owns a Lincoln watch “that was part of the O. H. Oldroid [sic] collection.” He says that since his watch and Larry Ready’s watch (the one being sold here) are the same size, with the same case, housed in similar boxes, that both are therefore authentic Lincoln watches.

The offering also fails to take into account another Lincoln presentation watch… the one in the Henry Luhrs Collection sold by Heritage Auctions in 2007 for $71,700. That watch had extensive documentation and the presentation engraving was signed “A.L.”, not “Abe Lincoln”. With an estimate of $30,000-$60,000, this ticking time bomb was passed."

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thanks, Roger!

[L Verge]

Well, if it's not authentic, that should lower the price more into what I could afford! I'll be happy to take it off someone's hands for $100 because it is a beautiful watch without the inscription.

[Jim Page]

Roger, thanks for posting that info about the Rail Splitter's review of auctions and such. I had forgotten about that site, but have enjoyed revisiting it this morning.

--Jim

[LincolnToddFan]

I must admit that I've never seen or read about this pocket watch and I am really floored. It's very beautiful and romantic. It had to have been given to Mary before the wedding, because he refers to her as "Miss Todd"? no?

It it is authentic, I think it should close the book on whether or not the Lincoln-Todd marriage was a love match. Lincoln gave Mary some really exquisite pieces(that diamond heart necklace still blows me away).

A huge THANK YOU to Laurie, Roger, Paige and Eva for posting those photos!

[Gene C]

How much would a watch like that have cost when it was new, and could Lincoln have afforded it?

[Eva Elisabeth]

I would guess even the wedding ring cost him a fortune. Wasn't he still paying off his national debt from the Lincoln and Berry store at the time of his wedding? (Although AFAIK it's not exactly known when he was out of debt?!) Is it known what the wedding ring cost?

[RJNorton]

Eva, I think most historians feel Lincoln was repaying this debt well into the 1840's, so I think it's certainly likely he was still paying in 1842. I have never seen a price for the ring. In fact there is so little known that I don't even think there's actual proof it was purchased from Chatterton's - just an assumption that is basically universal among authors. (I may be wrong on this, but I don't think I have ever seen 100% proof the ring was purchased there.)

[Eva Elisabeth]

It was the same about Mary - at some point in time her enormous debts were played, but not many details are known.