Who is number 23 ?

[loetar44]

How many people were present at the last viewing of Abraham Lincoln on September 26, 1901. A lot of sources say “16” and most sources say “23”. There are also accounts saying that “perhaps one or two others were present whose names are not now remembered”. That means a total of “25”.

I understand the number “16”, because that are the 16 persons depicted on the famous photo of (I believe) Guy Mathis, a local photographer. But he took the photo after the body was returned to the burial vault and the photo does not include all who were present and viewed the remains. Some had already left the monument. So there were certainly more than “16”. But I don’t understand “23”, or “25”, because there are only 22 names (signatures) in the Memorial Hall Register for September 26, 1901. Not 23 or 25 !

We have the claims of John L. Bowlus and Ernest Stansbury. Who are they?

Bowlus said he was the neighbor of (witness) Joseph H. Freeman and drove him to the Lincoln Tomb. Bowlus was then 14 years old and his story is strange, because he stated in 1953 that he saw Lincoln when the coffin was opened “into a dark catacomb where Lincoln's coffin lay concealed under a pile of boards”. However, we know that the coffin was opened in Memorial Hall.

Stansbury said that he was a mason working on the vault and was one of eight men who carried the coffin to Memorial Hall. He too claimed (in 1957) that he saw Lincoln. He was then 35 years old. However, one of the witnesses, Jacob C. Thompson said there were only six workmen who carried the coffin: “Herman Gaa, John M. Long, George Scroggins, John P. Thompson, John W. Whitney and a colored man whose name no one remembers”. None of them were allowed to stay during the viewing.

So it’s my understanding that Bowlus and Stansbury both were never there and never viewed Lincon and identified him. So Bowlus nor Stansbury are number “23”.

Below I listed all 22 persons who signed the Memory Hall Register, ranked in order of death.

Fleedwood Lindley is the longest-surviving witness.

BTW: Who knows more about Maj. Walter Robbins . Who was he? And why was he allowed / permitted to see Lincoln?

Name / dob / dod
1. Jasper N. Reece / April 30, 1841 / April 8, 1902
2. Floyd K. Whittemore / 1845 / March 11, 1907
3. George N. Black / March 15, 1833 / April 22, 1908
4. James S. Culver / 1852 / 1911
5. James S. McCulloch / May 4, 1843 / June 22, 1914
6. Laura Clinton Johnson / Oct. 21, 1847 / Sept. 5, 1915
7. Joseph P. Lindley/ March 20, 1842 / Feb. 11, 1918
8. Clinton L. Conkling / Oct. 16, 1843 / Oct 12, 1920
9. Edward S. Johnson / Aug. 9, 1843 / Feb. 15, 1921
10. Ross Culver / 1877 / April 2, 1924
11. Joseph H. Freeman / May 13, 1841 / June 12, 1931
12. John J. Brenholt / 1843 / May 22, 1934
13. Jacob C. Thompson / 1862 / 1934
14. Moses O. Williamson / June 14, 1850 / Feb. 14, 1935
15. Bazzell D. Monroe / Oct. 22, 1852 / June 29, 1937
16. Charles L. Willey / 1866 / 1944
17. Leon P. Hopkins / July 15, 1851 / June 18, 1946
18. Clara Kern Bayliss / 1848 / 1948
19. Henry B. McVeigh / Nov. 25 1861 / Jan 1, 1962
20. Fleedwood Lindley / April 4, 1887 / Feb. 1, 1963

21. Arthur L. Meriam / 1859 / after 1938
22. Walter Robbins / ? / ?

23. ?????

[DanielC]

(02-16-2015 05:23 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  How many people were present at the last viewing of Abraham Lincoln on September 26, 1901. A lot of sources say “16” and most sources say “23”. There are also accounts saying that “perhaps one or two others were present whose names are not now remembered”. That means a total of “25”.

I understand the number “16”, because that are the 16 persons depicted on the famous photo of (I believe) Guy Mathis, a local photographer. But he took the photo after the body was returned to the burial vault and the photo does not include all who were present and viewed the remains. Some had already left the monument. So there were certainly more than “16”. But I don’t understand “23”, or “25”, because there are only 22 names (signatures) in the Memorial Hall Register for September 26, 1901. Not 23 or 25 !

We have the claims of John L. Bowlus and Ernest Stansbury. Who are they?

Bowlus said he was the neighbor of (witness) Joseph H. Freeman and drove him to the Lincoln Tomb. Bowlus was then 14 years old and his story is strange, because he stated in 1953 that he saw Lincoln when the coffin was opened “into a dark catacomb where Lincoln's coffin lay concealed under a pile of boards”. However, we know that the coffin was opened in Memorial Hall.

Stansbury said that he was a mason working on the vault and was one of eight men who carried the coffin to Memorial Hall. He too claimed (in 1957) that he saw Lincoln. He was then 35 years old. However, one of the witnesses, Jacob C. Thompson said there were only six workmen who carried the coffin: “Herman Gaa, John M. Long, George Scroggins, John P. Thompson, John W. Whitney and a colored man whose name no one remembers”. None of them were allowed to stay during the viewing.

So it’s my understanding that Bowlus and Stansbury both were never there and never viewed Lincon and identified him. So Bowlus nor Stansbury are number “23”.

Below I listed all 22 persons who signed the Memory Hall Register, ranked in order of death.

Fleedwood Lindley is the longest-surviving witness.

BTW: Who knows more about Maj. Walter Robbins . Who was he? And why was he allowed / permitted to see Lincoln?

Name / dob / dod
1. Jasper N. Reece / April 30, 1841 / April 8, 1902
2. Floyd K. Whittemore / 1845 / March 11, 1907
3. George N. Black / March 15, 1833 / April 22, 1908
4. James S. Culver / 1852 / 1911
5. James S. McCulloch / May 4, 1843 / June 22, 1914
6. Laura Clinton Johnson / Oct. 21, 1847 / Sept. 5, 1915
7. Joseph P. Lindley/ March 20, 1842 / Feb. 11, 1918
8. Clinton L. Conkling / Oct. 16, 1843 / Oct 12, 1920
9. Edward S. Johnson / Aug. 9, 1843 / Feb. 15, 1921
10. Ross Culver / 1877 / April 2, 1924
11. Joseph H. Freeman / May 13, 1841 / June 12, 1931
12. John J. Brenholt / 1843 / May 22, 1934
13. Jacob C. Thompson / 1862 / 1934
14. Moses O. Williamson / June 14, 1850 / Feb. 14, 1935
15. Bazzell D. Monroe / Oct. 22, 1852 / June 29, 1937
16. Charles L. Willey / 1866 / 1944
17. Leon P. Hopkins / July 15, 1851 / June 18, 1946
18. Clara Kern Bayliss / 1848 / 1948
19. Henry B. McVeigh / Nov. 25 1861 / Jan 1, 1962
20. Fleedwood Lindley / April 4, 1887 / Feb. 1, 1963

21. Arthur L. Meriam / 1859 / after 1938
22. Walter Robbins / ? / ?

23. ?????

In Illinois there is only one #23!

[L Verge]

Dan - How did you feel about Bill Walton's comment that Michael Jordan was just "average?"

[Rogerm]

This question wasn't addressed to me. But, my opinion is that, if we follow Bill Walton's line of reasoning, the current meaning of "average" must be what we used to call "superlative."

[L Verge]

Agreed. And, I wouldn't mind being called "average."

[DanielC]

(02-16-2015 07:47 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Agreed. And, I wouldn't mind being called "average."

I think he may have been having a little fun. With that said, give me #33 on the Celtics over #23 any day!

[RJNorton]

Maybe George Cashman's incorrect claim was "accepted" by some writers (such as Dorothy Meserve Kunhardt), and there really was no #23?

(Dan, to some of us Illinoisans #23 Ryne Sandberg is a close second to Jordan)

[L Verge]

(02-16-2015 07:56 PM)DanielC Wrote:  

(02-16-2015 07:47 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Agreed. And, I wouldn't mind being called "average."

I think he may have been having a little fun. With that said, give me #33 on the Celtics over #23 any day!

I'm about to highjack another thread, Dan, but I should have remembered that you are our Boston boy and would always take the Celtics. I'm showing my age, but I was a huge Boston Celtics fan as a teenager in the 1950s. Those were the days of Bob Cousey, Bill Russell, Frank Ramsey, and other greats.

I must admit to switching my allegiance to the St. Louis Hawks, however, because of Mr. Hook Shot, Cliff Hagan of the University of Kentucky. He was drafted by the Celtics along with his teammate Lou Tsioropoulos, but they both chose to go into the military before going pro. Both were stationed with my father's unit at Andrews Air Force Base, and our family spent a many a night in the bleachers at the base gym watching them blow away other teams. We got to be good friends with Cliff and his wife.

When Cliff went back to the pros, he went to the St. Louis Hawks -- and so did my allegiance. If I remember right, Tsioropoulos was signed by the Hawks also. Those were the days of Bob Pettit too. Some great players and good memories.

[Hess1865]

#23? NY Yankee Don Mattingly!!!

[STS Lincolnite]

(02-16-2015 05:23 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  BTW: Who knows more about Maj. Walter Robbins . Who was he? And why was he allowed / permitted to see Lincoln?

Is this Robbins the same man as Brig. Gen. Walter R. Robbins? It sounds like Gen. Robbins was at one time was a high ranking member of a prestigious GAR post in Chicago. Perhaps it was in this capacity that he was one of those that viewed the body.

http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/it...?id=128224

[loetar44]

(02-17-2015 08:27 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  

(02-16-2015 05:23 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  BTW: Who knows more about Maj. Walter Robbins . Who was he? And why was he allowed / permitted to see Lincoln?

Is this Robbins the same man as Brig. Gen. Walter R. Robbins? It sounds like Gen. Robbins was at one time was a high ranking member of a prestigious GAR post in Chicago. Perhaps it was in this capacity that he was one of those that viewed the body.

http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/it...?id=128224

You might be right with Brig. Gen. (then Maj.) Walter R. Robbins. Thanks.

[DanielC]

(02-17-2015 10:16 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(02-16-2015 07:56 PM)DanielC Wrote:  

(02-16-2015 07:47 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Agreed. And, I wouldn't mind being called "average."

I think he may have been having a little fun. With that said, give me #33 on the Celtics over #23 any day!

I'm about to highjack another thread, Dan, but I should have remembered that you are our Boston boy and would always take the Celtics. I'm showing my age, but I was a huge Boston Celtics fan as a teenager in the 1950s. Those were the days of Bob Cousey, Bill Russell, Frank Ramsey, and other greats.

I must admit to switching my allegiance to the St. Louis Hawks, however, because of Mr. Hook Shot, Cliff Hagan of the University of Kentucky. He was drafted by the Celtics along with his teammate Lou Tsioropoulos, but they both chose to go into the military before going pro. Both were stationed with my father's unit at Andrews Air Force Base, and our family spent a many a night in the bleachers at the base gym watching them blow away other teams. We got to be good friends with Cliff and his wife.

When Cliff went back to the pros, he went to the St. Louis Hawks -- and so did my allegiance. If I remember right, Tsioropoulos was signed by the Hawks also. Those were the days of Bob Pettit too. Some great players and good memories.

I agree 100% Laurie. Those were the days where you could truly watch great "Team Basketball". Todays game is terrible with the one or two overpaid "marquis players".