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loetar44 · 05-04-2015, 05:37 PM

(05-04-2015 05:29 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Truth to be told I feel a bit frustrated as I tried to make the same points as Kees but received opposition.

Toia, re. the "rumors that she offended MHL by bossing around her servants", please go here to the bottom of p. 157 and the top of the following page:
https://books.google.de/books?id=3XLTAAA...CA4Q6AEwAQ
I had posted that already yesterday, but this morning I withdrew.

As a matter of fact I share your point of view Eva. So sorry that I forgot to mention that !

LincolnToddFan · (This post was last modified: 05-04-2015 08:24 PM by LincolnToddFan.)

(05-04-2015 05:29 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Truth to be told I feel a bit frustrated as I tried to make the same points as Kees did but received opposition.

Toia, re. the "rumors that she offended MHL by bossing around her servants", please go here to the bottom of p. 157 and the top of the following page:
https://books.google.de/books?id=3XLTAAA...CA4Q6AEwAQ
I had posted that already yesterday, but this morning decided to withdraw.

Thanks Eva, yes...I do see your point! Wink

I would find a mother-in-law like that impossible to live with too. I guess the only point I was trying to make is that I am not sure how a feud like that could snowball into a decision to alter/change burial plans.

But both Marys were spoiled and stubborn women. Maybe something unforgiveable was said or done that we aren't aware of.

STS Lincolnite · 05-04-2015, 10:22 PM

(05-02-2015 11:41 AM)loetar44 Wrote: Who knows on which wall in the Lincoln Tomb exactly is this stone (RTL's cenotaph) ?

Robert's Cenotaph is on the same wall as the markers of Mary, Eddy & Willie, and Tad (these markers are listed from left to right when facing). The family members that are interred at the tomb are in a sort of chamber along with the marker for AL. On either side of the chamber there are gates that extend to be locked up and that retract to allow visitors through. Robert's cenotaph, when facing the markers for the Mary, Eddy & Willie, and Tad and with back toward AL's marker, is to the right of Tad and just outside the lockable gate (whereas the others are between the lockable gates).

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 04:25 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(05-04-2015 08:21 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:
(05-04-2015 05:29 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Truth to be told I feel a bit frustrated as I tried to make the same points as Kees did but received opposition.

Toia, re. the "rumors that she offended MHL by bossing around her servants", please go here to the bottom of p. 157 and the top of the following page:
https://books.google.de/books?id=3XLTAAA...CA4Q6AEwAQ
I had posted that already yesterday, but this morning decided to withdraw.

Thanks Eva, yes...I do see your point! I would find a mother-in-law like that impossible to live with too. I guess the only point I was trying to make is that I am not sure how a feud like that could snowball into a decision to alter/change burial plans.

But both Marys were spoiled and stubborn women. Maybe something unforgiveable was said or done that we aren't aware of.

Thanks, Toia. I'm sorry I "snapped". I think it doesn't need a feud not wanting to be buried under someone else's roof (and Oak Ridge was MTL's roof) whom you don't feel well with. Mary Harlan had no ties to Springfield either.

HerbS · 05-05-2015, 07:30 AM

I had a"poor me" mother-in-law,but she was ok.It was my father-in-law who full of hot air[he was not ok in my eyes]!Maybe MTL felt,she could never measure up for MHL's or AL's expectations.I know the feeling that MTL went through.This just my experience and my opinion.

loetar44 · 05-05-2015, 07:40 AM

(05-04-2015 10:22 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:
(05-02-2015 11:41 AM)loetar44 Wrote: Who knows on which wall in the Lincoln Tomb exactly is this stone (RTL's cenotaph) ?

Robert's Cenotaph is on the same wall as the markers of Mary, Eddy & Willie, and Tad (these markers are listed from left to right when facing). The family members that are interred at the tomb are in a sort of chamber along with the marker for AL. On either side of the chamber there are gates that extend to be locked up and that retract to allow visitors through. Robert's cenotaph, when facing the markers for the Mary, Eddy & Willie, and Tad and with back toward AL's marker, is to the right of Tad and just outside the lockable gate (whereas the others are between the lockable gates).

Thanks. Seems to me a logic place. Nearest to Tad (who he knew best of all his siblings), but outside the lockable gate (thus outside the burial chamber), for me symbolizing that RTL had his own place in history, apart from his direct family.

LincolnToddFan · (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 09:30 AM by LincolnToddFan.)

That's why I posited a few posts up that RTL could have had his own "place in the sun" within the Lincoln Tomb. He could have been in an area distinct from his family...but not eternally cut off from them.

His monument at Arlington goes virtually unnoticed. I hardly think that's what his widow had in mind. Confused

(05-05-2015 04:17 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(05-04-2015 08:21 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:
(05-04-2015 05:29 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Truth to be told I feel a bit frustrated as I tried to make the same points as Kees did but received opposition.

Toia, re. the "rumors that she offended MHL by bossing around her servants", please go here to the bottom of p. 157 and the top of the following page:
https://books.google.de/books?id=3XLTAAA...CA4Q6AEwAQ
I had posted that already yesterday, but this morning decided to withdraw.

Thanks Eva, yes...I do see your point! I would find a mother-in-law like that impossible to live with too. I guess the only point I was trying to make is that I am not sure how a feud like that could snowball into a decision to alter/change burial plans.

But both Marys were spoiled and stubborn women. Maybe something unforgiveable was said or done that we aren't aware of.
Thanks, Toia. I'm sorry I "snapped". I think it doesn't need a feud not wanting to be buried under someone else's roof (and Oak Ridge was MTL's roof) whom you don't feel well with. Mary Harlan had no ties to Springfield either.

Eva, my friend you don't need to apologize to me because you did not "snap" at all! You are the kindest person, and you simply presented a view point that was VERY VALID but different from most of the others presented!

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 05:27 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

Thanks, Toia.
Re.:"RTL could have had his own "place in the sun" within the Lincoln Tomb. He could have been in an area distinct from his family...but not eternally cut off from them" - if the true background was indeed that Mary Harlan didn't want to rest with Mary Lincoln the only other option would have been to rest separated from her husband. What do you think would Robert have prefered had he had to choose between "joining" either his family or his wife?

loetar44 · (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 11:44 AM by loetar44.)

Again thanks to Toia for describing in which wall RTL's cenotaph is. Now that I know where to look I've found (You Tube) a lengthy footage of the Lincoln Tomb made by a certain "Slvrbllt44". I'm so free to cut out the small part in which the RTL stone is shown, just to illustrate Toia's post. I think that on the opposite wall is the bronze plaque with the text of the Gettysburg Address. Click here:

https://app.box.com/s/dk3kf2asurcf83h2vujxiwo3eej3pbkp

Anita · 05-05-2015, 06:34 PM

(05-05-2015 10:50 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Thanks, Toia.
Re.:"RTL could have had his own "place in the sun" within the Lincoln Tomb. He could have been in an area distinct from his family...but not eternally cut off from them" - if the true background was indeed that Mary Harlan didn't want to rest with Mary Lincoln the only other option would have been to rest separated from her husband. What do you think would Robert have prefered had he had to choose between "joining" either his family or his wife?

Robert was very clear that he wanted the Lincoln family buried together in Springfield. He was proud of his father and the Lincoln name. He had his son buried there. During Robert's lifetime MHL never expressed her wishes NOT to be buried with Robert in Springfield. If she died before Robert she would have been buried in the Lincoln tomb unless she left legal instructions to the contrary. That didn't happen. I don't believe she would challenge Robert into choosing. Since Robert passed first, Mary was in control and overrode Robert's wishes. She had her son exhumed from Springfield and created a Lincoln-Harlan memorial at Arlington.

Anita · 05-05-2015, 07:30 PM

(05-05-2015 07:11 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(05-05-2015 06:34 PM)Anita Wrote: Robert was very clear that he wanted the Lincoln family buried together in Springfield.
When he asked for these arrangements to be made he wrote on the very day to a friend he "would not press it for a moment but would build my own family tomb somewhere".

What was the context? Why would he have to" press it" in the first place?

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 07:58 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(05-05-2015 06:34 PM)Anita Wrote: Robert was very clear that he wanted the Lincoln family buried together in Springfield.

When he asked for these arrangements to be made he wrote on the very day to a friend that "if what I wish is not entirely satisfactory to any member [of the National Lincoln Monument Association in charge of the tomb], I would not press it for a moment but would build my own family tomb somewhere".
This makes me feel that if it wasn't entirely satisfactory to his wife, he wouldn't have pressed her either. As I said, sometimes one doesn't really realize or dare to realize such unless the very situation realizes and the decision has to be finally sealed or agreed to. Maybe Mary Harlan at the very moment of Robert's realized her dissatisafaction (for whatever reason). I tend to believe Robert would have forgiven his wife (as his father would have), so why don't we?

Anita · 05-05-2015, 08:10 PM

(05-05-2015 07:46 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(05-05-2015 06:34 PM)Anita Wrote: Robert was very clear that he wanted the Lincoln family buried together in Springfield.
When he asked for these arrangements to be made he wrote on the very day to a friend that "if what I wish is not entirely satisfactory to any member [of the National Lincoln Monument Association in charge of the tomb], I would not press it for a moment but would build my own family tomb somewhere".
This makes me feel that if it wasn't entirely satisfactory to his wife, he wouldn't have pressed her either. As I said, sometimes one doesn't really realizes such unless the very situation realizes and the decision has to be finally sealed or agreed to. Maybe Mary Harlan at the very moment of Robert's realized her dissatisafaction (for whatever reason). I tend to believe Robert would have forgiven his wife, so why don't we?

What it sounds like to me is that Robert wasn't sure if the Monument Assoc. would have objections so he would take the high road and not make a big deal if they had a problem with his request. That doesn't mean it wasn't his first preference. Eva, IMO it's not our place to forgive or not forgive. Mary made a personal decision she had every right to make. Do I wish the Lincolns were buried all together happily ever after- sure. But it wasn't that way in life so I understand Mary's decision.

LincolnToddFan · 05-05-2015, 09:44 PM

(05-05-2015 11:40 AM)loetar44 Wrote: Again thanks to Toia for describing in which wall RTL's cenotaph is. Now that I know where to look I've found (You Tube) a lengthy footage of the Lincoln Tomb made by a certain "Slvrbllt44". I'm so free to cut out the small part in which the RTL stone is shown, just to illustrate Toia's post. I think that on the opposite wall is the bronze plaque with the text of the Gettysburg Address. Click here:

https://app.box.com/s/dk3kf2asurcf83h2vujxiwo3eej3pbkp

Hi kees...I think the gratitude should go to SCOTT as he is the one who did such a great job describing the RTL Cenotaph. Unfortunately I have not had a chance to go and see it in person yet!

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 05-06-2015 06:16 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(05-05-2015 08:10 PM)Anita Wrote:
(05-05-2015 07:46 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(05-05-2015 06:34 PM)Anita Wrote: Robert was very clear that he wanted the Lincoln family buried together in Springfield.
When he asked for these arrangements to be made he wrote on the very day to a friend that "if what I wish is not entirely satisfactory to any member [of the National Lincoln Monument Association in charge of the tomb], I would not press it for a moment but would build my own family tomb somewhere".
This makes me feel that if it wasn't entirely satisfactory to his wife, he wouldn't have pressed her either. As I said, sometimes one doesn't really realizes such unless the very situation realizes and the decision has to be finally sealed or agreed to. Maybe Mary Harlan at the very moment of Robert's realized her dissatisafaction (for whatever reason). I tend to believe Robert would have forgiven his wife, so why don't we?
What it sounds like to me is that Robert wasn't sure if the Monument Assoc. would have objections so he would take the high road and not make a big deal if they had a problem with his request. That doesn't mean it wasn't his first preference. Eva, IMO it's not our place to forgive or not forgive. Mary made a personal decision she had every right to make. Do I wish the Lincolns were buried all together happily ever after- sure. But it wasn't that way in life so I understand Mary's decision.

Re.: "That doesn't mean it wasn't his first preference" - yes, and I didn't mean to deny this, just point out his wish wasn't so ardent to have it accompished "over his dead body".
Re: "IMO it's not our place to forgive or not forgive" - I agree, and then it's not our place to criticize her either, which caused me to reply and point out MHL's possible position in the beginning.