Abraham Lincoln Tomb Documentary

[LincolnToddFan]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for such a thoughtful reply.

I completely understand why RTL took the drastic measures he did to protect the remains of his father. There had been a near successful attempt to steal his body. The coffin had been opened at least 17 times to "verify" the late president's identity. (There is also no doubt in my mind that the coffin would still be periodically opened up to our present day...to test dna etc)

But surely, there must have been a way of securing the poor man's remains without locking him away in a block of concrete, like some gangland mafioso! It just strikes me as so sad that AL, so lonely and isolated in life, reposes that way in death too...separated from the family who adored him.

As for Mary Todd Lincoln, I could not agree with you more. This woman has been so harshly dealt with by historians up to our present day that it makes my blood boil. I have my ideas about why she has been treated so badly, but I won't go into them here. What I remember vividly from reading her letters, written after the assassination, is that the knowledge that her earthly remains would someday lie eternally at the side of her beloved husband was her greatest consolation. For a few years after her death that's exactly where they were. Knowing this as he must have, I cannot imagine why Robert would allow them to be separated.

I suppose in the final analysis it doesn't matter. It's not really AL that is in the block of concrete after all...it's only what remains of him on this Earth.

Chris, I want to congratulate you on your project and other work..it sounds fascinating and worthwhile!

[Angela]

(07-31-2014 09:30 PM)Chris Ryder Wrote:  LincolnToddFan,

I am still learning a great deal and don't know your answer about Mrs. Lincoln, but will ask the LMA. I did read an article about a previous tombkeeper who was crawling above the catacomb of sorts where Mrs. Lincoln is buried and discovered the original grave marker stones. I don't know if this was prior to the final entombment or not.

Your point about taking a bomb to break the concrete (and possible steel cage) is something which I've now added to my potential 'avenues'. Is there a debate on whether or not in this day and age of electronic security if there is a desire to free him, as you say. I could understand an argument where people would want the body to actually reside in the sarcophagus on display, and others maintaining the wishes of the family, son Robert in particular, should always prevail. There seemed to be a lot of people with the morbid curiosity to come up with excuses to view the body. Understandably there are even more people today who would want that opportunity and develop the perfect excuse to do so? The opportunity to be the new, last person to view his body. If Jesus is the most written about person in the world and President Lincoln is second, wouldn't that also be the order of who people would also like to see with their own eyes more than any other person?

Back to Mrs. Lincoln, another avenue I want to concentrate on is the monument as a tomb for a family and to try to give Mrs. Lincoln a fair deal. Maybe I am naive, but I think she gets a bad rap historically. Similar to Jackie Kennedy, the trajedy she experienced is unfathomable. Then for history to beat her up, ask Congress for a widows pension, fight the opportunists who wanted to turn LA into a tourist attraction...she had to endure things most of us will never experience on our worse day.

I fight with the thought I am being a bit hypocritical as well by potentially earning some income from his death by creating this documentary...and that reminds me of something I forgot to bring up before. If I am able to produce the re-enactment scenes, there will be no actor portraying the president. All camera angles used will never actually show the body. That's my line of respect.

I also find it endearing throughout the LMA budget cuts, they have not resorted to tackiness. They sell a few items on their website and offer memberships. There is no visitors center with a gift shop. That surely disappoints some people, but the intention was this monument and tomb to be a mecca, not a tourist attraction.

Chris,
Thank you so much for the details. From the original description I thought this would be good – after reading about your most respectful approach on the matter, I can hardly wait to see this documentary.

I imagine it must be difficult to avoid the avenue of sensationalism which would probably help to sell the story and your shying away from it has my highest respect.

As you, I cannot imagine the idea to break up the tomb once more and drag those remains into the open. I understand the wish of people for “closeness” to such a revered figure, but isn’t it time to let him rest?
At the same time, I agree with Toia that it was a most tragic decision to come up with such destructive way of entombing the remains with little chance to retrieve them in case that should ever be necessary. I'm curious if - back in the day - any other options were considered by the family.

In a way, it is quite interesting how we all want a piece of Abraham Lincoln.
I once read somewhere that sometimes it is hard to realize that we already have it – have had it for 150 years, we just have not figured out what to do with it.
I liked that thought and maybe that is why we want more.

[Houmes]

I completely understand why RTL took the drastic measures he did to protect the remains of his father. There had been a near successful attempt to steal his body. The coffin had been opened at least 17 times to "verify" the late president's identity. (There is also no doubt in my mind that the coffin would still be periodically opened up to our present day...to test dna etc)

But surely, there [i]must have been a way of securing the poor man's remains without locking him away in a block of concrete, like some gangland mafioso! It just strikes me as so sad that AL, so lonely and isolated in life, reposes that way in death too...separated from the family who adored him.[/i]


In 1876, the same year of the attempt to kidnap Lincoln's body there was a successful grave robbery in New York City, hijacking the body of Alexander Stewart, a prominent multimillionaire. The body of George Washington, our first president, was an intended victim in 1830 (when a Mount Vernon gardener snatched the wrong skull from the family crypt) and again in 1831. More recently, Elvis Presley almost left the building in 1977 when an inept gang planned to steal and ransom his body.

Robert Todd Lincoln had every right to be a little paranoid regarding his father's remains. After George Pullman's death in 1897, when Robert Lincoln assumed presidency of the Pullman railway car company, he witnessed the family's extreme care taken for burial of their paterfamilias. George Pullman was vehemently despised by his railway workers due to poor working conditions in 1893 and 1894, resulting in a nationwide strike. The family feared a kidnapping, ransom, and possible desecration of the body. His coffin was sealed inside an 18 inch thick block of concrete, then covered with tar paper and asphalt. More concrete was poured over it, a layer of steel railroad rails were placed and bolted together over that, and finally another layer of concrete.

[Anita]

After reading Dr. Houmes post I side with Robert. He wanted his father to " Rest In Peace", not pieces. While there were those in his day who ransomed bodies, today is no better, maybe worse. Even with today's technology I don't think Lincoln would be safe from those willing to pay big bucks just to have a relic of his corpse they alone could gaze upon.

Legal question- If no living descendants exist to protest legally, could Lincoln be freed from his concrete and steel block? Did Robert leave legal papers that protect tampering with the burial in perpetuity?

[LincolnToddFan]

I side with Robert too, Anita. I just feel the remains could have been made secure without encasing them in a block of concrete, and separating AL from the rest of his family permanently.

As for the legal question about removing the president, I have no idea. I think RTL assumed that this solution was so final that it would preclude any discussion about further disturbing the remains, so it could be that he didn't even bother to address it.

I do believe that there is an agreement that no one except Lincoln, his wife and children and their families can be buried there. Robert buried his only son there and expected to be laid to rest in the Tomb as well, but his widow disregarded his wishes.

[RJNorton]

Anita, I sometimes wonder if Robert's wishes really matter. In 1901 he had specifically requested that his father's casket not be opened. These wishes were ignored. And as Toia said his wishes were ignored again as to the location of his burial.

His wish regarding the Lincoln Papers was honored, but there was still much curiosity. His request was that they not be opened until 21 years after his death. They were made public on July 26, 1947, exactly 21 years to the day of his passing.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(07-31-2014 01:53 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I hate the fact that AL is in a block of concrete. I can't help it, I continue to hope that science will find a way to "free" him one day. As it stands only a bomb could blow it open at this point.

I uttermost agree on this - even if it's "just" the remains. When I first read of the 20 feet of concrete I was shocked and thought I got that wrong somehow. I instantly thought about how it would feel like lying therein alive.

(07-31-2014 09:30 PM)Chris Ryder Wrote:  I could understand an argument where people would want the body to actually reside in the sarcophagus on display...There seemed to be a lot of people with the morbid curiosity to come up with excuses to view the body. Understandably there are even more people today who would want that opportunity and develop the perfect excuse to do so? The opportunity to be the new, last person to view his body. If Jesus is the most written about person in the world and President Lincoln is second, wouldn't that also be the order of who people would also like to see with their own eyes more than any other person?

My fear - let sufficient time pass, and everyone will be able to view the body. The ancient Egyptians who buried their kings and priests deep in the depths of the pyramids wouldn't be "amuzed" to know them on display like this now at the British Museum and elsewhere:
   
BTW, I asked this once and received no reply, maybe someone will know now: Mary wasn't embalmed, was she?

[Chris Ryder]

Interesting someone mentioned the attempt to steal Elvis Presley's remains. I wrote a treatment for a screenplay called 'I Dig Elvis' where someone moves into the home closest to his grave at Graceland and burrows an underground tunnel. The house is actually 1234 Dolan Drive. The lead character makes a deal with a tabloid to provide posthumous photos of Elvis in exchange for money, then eventually succumbs to remorse over it. It is actually a mild comedy and not a biopic in any fashion, and has a warm ending.

Even with electronic security, we are at the mercy of hackers..and maybe even those of higher power such as the NSA. Putting more thought into it all, there really can be no guarantee of protection as technology advances. The technology advances in both directions and is likely a zero sum game, but it prevents the 'amateurs' from making an attempt...like counterfeiters getting boozed up. Sadly, even if the body were stolen now, the LMA wouldn't be able to afford to get it back. What kind of closure do the Russian's feel with Vladamir Lenin's body on display in Red Square? Where is the balance?

At least Mr. Lincoln is there. I believe there is a shrine in Redwood, CA. I was astonished to read about the fundraising campaign to create it and how much they raised, yet the actual place where he resides struggles with their budget. The fact he is in Springfield is consoling. Even when I visit Frank Lloyd Wright's empty grave in Taliesin, there is a spiritually absent feeling that he isn't there. Given that, each one of us has our own thoughts about how close we need to be to the body, whether someone who wished to be cremated actually had their ashes spread where they wanted, family who decided bury the ashes instead, then those who feel the body is simply an empty shell. It is all relative to each person and will be debated until the end of time. Should a popular consensus prompt a change? Are there Russians who feel Lenin should be encased in a ton of concrete in order to feel he is finally at peace?

Regardless of this debate, I am not sure I mentioned this directly, but I will avoid sensationalism at all costs with the documentary. This forum and the current discussion is all being taken into consideration to find where that boundary is, and I thank you all for that.

Last, not knowing the details on whether MTL was embalmed, at what point in time did this happen simply for the reason to ensure people were actually dead (versus being a in trance)?

That alone is another interesting tangent about Oak Ridge Cemetery with people who lived in proximity to the cemetery becoming ill when the water table was infested with embalming fluid (arsenic?).

[LincolnToddFan]

[BTW, I asked this once and received no reply, maybe someone will know now: Mary wasn't embalmed, was she? ]// quote

Eva,

Mary died on a Saturday or Sunday evening in mid July...one of the hottest, most humid periods for the American Midwest. Her body was laid out for viewing on the following Tuesday, with her funeral and burial on the Wednesday. I would think there is NO WAY that she wasn't embalmed. Things would have deteriorated very quickly in those weather conditions. They would not have been able to have a viewing for her three or even two days later in the heat of summer without embalming her. And keep in mind, RTL was delayed and they were not exactly sure when he would arrive.

Again, I would be very surprised if she wasn't embalmed.

[LincolnToddFan]

[ Sadly, even if the body were stolen now, the LMA wouldn't be able to afford to get it back]// quote

Hi Chris,

In the unlikely event that a dead president's remains were ever stolen from his resting place today, the US Secret Service and likely the FBI would assume responsibility for retrieving them and prosecuting the criminals. Abraham Lincoln's skull fragments and other relics are considered the property of the US Government, which is why it is well nigh impossible for scientists and other interested parties to gain access to them for dna testing.

Does anyone really believe that if JFK was stolen from Arlington Cemetery, the Feds would just shrug their shoulders and advise the Kennedy family and/or the Kennedy Library that they'd better fork over $$ if they ever expect to get him back? No way!

There is no way that the FBI would not take charge of any attempt to recover Lincoln's body if it was stolen today.

[RJNorton]

(08-03-2014 07:21 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  BTW, I asked this once and received no reply, maybe someone will know now: Mary wasn't embalmed, was she?

(08-03-2014 10:06 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Again, I would be very surprised if she wasn't embalmed.

She was embalmed. Dr. Wayne C. Temple writes that the Edwards family "summoned Thomas C. Smith to take charge of the body and prepare it for burial. This noted undertaker kept his establishment and his home at 325 South 5th. After embalming, Mary's body was placed in a rosewood casket having a heavy lead inside lining. Outside, the coffin was covered with black velvet. When the undertaker had completed his labors, Mary Lincoln's 'face bore the faint trace of a smile as though the troubled soul had been thrilled with a new joy'."

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thanks Roger, fascinating account! Toia, you already made excellent and convincing points!

[Chris Ryder]

(08-03-2014 11:39 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  [ Sadly, even if the body were stolen now, the LMA wouldn't be able to afford to get it back]// quote

Hi Chris,

In the unlikely event that a dead president's remains were ever stolen from his resting place today, the US Secret Service and likely the FBI would assume responsibility for retrieving them and prosecuting the criminals. Abraham Lincoln's skull fragments and other relics are considered the property of the US Government, which is why it is well nigh impossible for scientists and other interested parties to gain access to them for dna testing.

Does anyone really believe that if JFK was stolen from Arlington Cemetery, the Feds would just shrug their shoulders and advise the Kennedy family and/or the Kennedy Library that they'd better fork over $$ if they ever expect to get him back? No way!

There is no way that the FBI would not take charge of any attempt to recover Lincoln's body if it was stolen today.

You're right. As soon as I posted that it didn't resonate very well with me. The government is so fickle about things. When a president leaves the White House and wants to keep gifts sent during their administration, they have to personally pay for those items.

If the government goes through great strains to care for the body and proper burial rites of Osama Bin Laden, then they certainly should do whatever is necessary to recover the remains of any stolen president.

Apologies if that sounds a little snide and cynical.

[Donna McCreary]

I am looking forward to the DVD! This sounds like a wonderful project.
Last month, we were once again in Springfield to honor the life of Mary Lincoln with a memorial and wreath laying service on the anniversary of her death. For the first time since we have been organizing this event, the weather was nice. Usually, it is beween 94 - 104 degrees. This year, the temperatures were in the mid-70's and a nice breeze helped keep everyone cool. I have often thought that the weather was part of Mary's cause of death. She was in an upstairs room - the humidity would have been horrid.

Chris, do you know whether or not any of Mary's jewelry was buried with her? The seed pearl Tiffany set contained a pair of braclets, a necklace, ear rings, and a brooch. Only the necklace and braclets made it to Library of Congress. Since she had a white funeral, I have always wondered if the ear rings and brooch were buried with her.

[LincolnToddFan]

Donna,

I think it's such a lovely idea that you and the others honor Mary that way. Sometimes I feel that visitors to the Lincoln Tomb overlook that unfortunate lady. It makes me happy that she is remembered, and I bet she is grateful too!

Mary spent the last months and weeks of her life in an upstairs room with the curtains drawn. Since she died in the middle of summer, I have also wondered if the heat and humidity contributed to speeding up the end. It must have been as suffocating as an oven in there, I've no idea how she and her caregivers could bear it!