Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

Gencor · 11-01-2014, 07:45 PM

(11-01-2014 09:42 AM)L Verge Wrote: Your assessments of Mary Lincoln, Kate, Sprague the Sot are really well thought-out, Genna. Thank you so much.

In an earlier post, you brought up the subject of Sprague's devious second wife. I knew nothing about her until reading American Queen. Do you have any more juicy details on her background as well as her marriage to Sprague? Also, what about Mary Viall, the longtime mistress that Sprague insisted on rubbing in Kate's face - and the public's for that matter?

I answered this for you, but now I don't see it posted. I do hope that it can be found because I did see that it posted and I also answered the one for you about Mary Viall. I do hope that they will be posted so that you can read them. I don't know what happened.

L Verge · 11-01-2014, 08:38 PM

Good assessment of their personalities. I am now curious as to whether you have every read more details about the second wife of Sprague. And what about his longtime mistress, Mary Vaill, whom he rubbed in Kate's face as well as the public's?

Gencor · 11-02-2014, 01:21 AM

(11-01-2014 08:38 PM)L Verge Wrote: Good assessment of their personalities. I am now curious as to whether you have every read more details about the second wife of Sprague. And what about his longtime mistress, Mary Vaill, whom he rubbed in Kate's face as well as the public's?

I answered this on page 2. But I think that it is important to note that when Kate reburied her father about three years after Sprague had married the other woman, Inez, he made a strong statement that was printed in the newspapers about Kate. I think that Sprague couldn't stand the fact that this big news story, with so many celebrated officials in attendance didn't include him, nor was he even mentioned. Kate was written about and complemented in every article, however. Sprague had to find a way to have his part in it so he made this very public statement Quoted in "Kate Chase For The Defense" which I highly recommend by Alice Sokoloff, she quotes Sprague. At the time, it was astonishing! "Mrs. Katherine Chase is a woman of rare attainments." "She has a brilliant mind and many accomplishments, she is a woman of ardent affections, and nature has been munificent in bestowing upon her rare charms of person and manner. She will bring up her daughters well, and they will make fine women." And much like a self appointed guardian, Sprague went to her defense in a fantastic illustration of the whims and changes that could take place in his attitudes. "The world has been very inconsiderate in its treatment of her," he remarked smugly. "She is devoting herself to her children, to bring them up to be good and noble women, in honor to their blood and parentage, and she should be permitted to follow these instincts of maternity without intrusion of public comment or scandal. Every word uttered she may endure, but chan the children live it down? Mrs. Chase was always a high spirited woman accustomed to exercising her own will, and she will always do that." He goes on to say that he believes that she is well off having inherited some property from her mother and also her father. (This was a complete untruth) He says that he, himself gave her $50,000 at one time. "Judging from her usual conservatism in money matters and her business tact, she must have sufficient to make her comfortable if used with discretion. (He had no idea what he was talking about) That she will do. I learn that her style of living near Paris is very plain, but respectable and comfortable."

This amazing statement was published in the Philadelphia newspapers and promptly picked up by several other papers, including the Providence Journal. Needless to say, Inez was thrown into a state of fury at Sprague's tender and protective mood of the moment toward his ex-wife. I am betting that Sprague must have really paid a price because Inez has a violent temper and she went to the newspapers and asked them to retract the statement and they refused. She demanded that Sprague write another statement and he refused. So, she took to the print herself. In her overreaction, jealousy and hatred for Kate was full of vitriol. In her open letter to the Narragansett Herald, she declared:

"Since Katherine Chase has been agitating the removal of her father's body she has beguiled the interim by entertaining reporters with reminiscences, and shadowing forth her charms, assuring the public she married Governor Sprague to further her father's political interests, thus martyring herself on the alter of Mammon. A recent article in the Philadelphia Times has been extensively quoted, purporting to have been an interview with Mr. Sprague, but which emanating from the same source as the rest, has demanded in justic to truth and decency a denial in detail. "By her own confession, purity, refinement, and all the other instincts of womanhood were warped and blighted when she sold herself to Governor Sprague. Treachery and deceit were the parents of disloyalty and disunion, from which naturally issues treason and continued spite. I have ever felt kindly towards her- for her actions have given me the love of the noblest and grandest of men, and would only ask her to hesitate ere she bring into connection with her a name that belongs wholly and entirely to another. "I do not object to her regaling her friends by expatiating on her personal attractions (if she permits her fondness for the antique to carry her to such length) neither do I object to her reveling in past conquests, if she can find listeners, but I demand that she does not refer to my husband in any form whatever. We extend to her our united pity, which she ever and always will command."

It is amazing how Sprague could incite his women to the frenzies of jealousy that both Viall and Dora seem to have to take to the public forum to express. This was uncalled for and while Kate was already back in Paris when this jealous idiot wrote this, her friends read it. It defined Dora for the rest of her marriage to Sprague and while Kate was gone to Paris, she still had powerful friends who didn't take kindly to this. It also made Sprague look like a hen pecked idiot who might be rethinking not only this marriage but the fact that maybe Kate wasn't so bad afterall. The woman clearly had no idea that by taking out publicly after Kate, when Kate had nothing to do with any of this, made her look like the most jealous female fool of the century, not to mention a woman who was very unsure of her husband.

L Verge · 11-02-2014, 01:47 PM

Thanks, Genna. The forum's goblins have been playing games with me to the point where I don't see some of the posts and also where it won't post some of my comments. Its censorship is starting to get on this old radical's nerves! LOL.

Gencor · 11-02-2014, 03:35 PM

(11-02-2014 01:47 PM)L Verge Wrote: Thanks, Genna. The forum's goblins have been playing games with me to the point where I don't see some of the posts and also where it won't post some of my comments. Its censorship is starting to get on this old radical's nerves! LOL.

Not a problem, Verge. I had problems yesterday with my post also. In fact, it was strange. They posted and then when I came back later, they were gone and then later last night, they were there again. LOL

L Verge · 11-02-2014, 06:56 PM

Genna, please call me Laurie. As for the posting problems, The host server for this forum is experiencing difficulties. Contact Roger, and he will give you hints on how to get around this - especially using refresh/reload feature on each page you want to go to.

LincolnToddFan · (This post was last modified: 11-03-2014 02:31 PM by LincolnToddFan.)

(10-31-2014 07:39 AM)Gene C Wrote: So if you compared Mary and Kate - who was more skilled in politics, and who was more influential on a political career? Mary on her husbands, or Kate on her father's?

That's a good question. I'll say Mary. In spite of her personality quirks, Abraham made it to become President. But then in my opinion, she also had the better man to support and encourage.

Kate certainly had her charms and abilities, but I'm not so sure she was the better judge of people, but maybe a bit more discreet than Mary. Anyone recommend a good book about Salmon Chase? (other than Team of Rivals - which is very good)

I had always thought that Kate married Sprague to help get financing for her fathers run for the presidency. Sprague has given me the impression of someone who rose to power and money to quickly and didn't know how to properly deal with it. He let those things control his life, instead of the other way around. He ended up with the usual results.
[/quote]

A big, hearty AMEN here, Gene! I agree 100%, especially as to the reasons she married Sprague, who turned out to be quite the TWERP in the words of another poster.

Mary lacked Kate's self-control, but Kate's life was never the endless theater of loss and trauma that was Mary's lot almost from the beginning.

Gencor · (This post was last modified: 11-03-2014 10:41 PM by Gencor.)

(11-02-2014 06:56 PM)L Verge Wrote: Genna, please call me Laurie. As for the posting problems, The host server for this forum is experiencing difficulties. Contact Roger, and he will give you hints on how to get around this - especially using refresh/reload feature on each page you want to go to.

Thank you, Laurie. I did contact Roger to report my problem with logging in. I was interested to hear your thoughts about the post that I made to answer your questions. I have been reading about Sprague and what happened to him after the divorce and I have come up with alot of information, that I posted for you. I found it most interesting that after his divorce from Kate, and a few mid life screw ups, he really led a pretty dull life. I thought Oller's quotes from Sprague, at the end of the book, when Sprague commented that he would not want to live out those early years ever again, was hilarious since, as soon as he married Dora, he came back, almost immediately from the wedding/honeymoon and ran for Governor of Rhode Island. Even into his late 60's he was trying to stay in politics by running for town council president. This man is a true study in habitual lies and contradictions. That didn't seem to change after Kate divorced him. LOL

(11-03-2014 02:29 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:
(10-31-2014 07:39 AM)Gene C Wrote: So if you compared Mary and Kate - who was more skilled in politics, and who was more influential on a political career? Mary on her husbands, or Kate on her father's?

That's a good question. I'll say Mary. In spite of her personality quirks, Abraham made it to become President. But then in my opinion, she also had the better man to support and encourage.

Kate certainly had her charms and abilities, but I'm not so sure she was the better judge of people, but maybe a bit more discreet than Mary. Anyone recommend a good book about Salmon Chase? (other than Team of Rivals - which is very good)

I had always thought that Kate married Sprague to help get financing for her fathers run for the presidency. Sprague has given me the impression of someone who rose to power and money to quickly and didn't know how to properly deal with it. He let those things control his life, instead of the other way around. He ended up with the usual results.

A big, hearty AMEN here, Gene! I agree 100%, especially as to the reasons she married Sprague, who turned out to be quite the TWERP in the words of another poster.

Mary lacked Kate's self-control, but Kate's life was never the endless theater of loss and trauma that was Mary's lot almost from the beginning.
[/quote]

If you are looking for a really good book about Salmon Chase's biography, the latest one, and I recommend it, Salmon P. Chase: A Biography by John Niven. It is a very good read and Mr. Niven really did his homework on this one.

LincolnToddFan · 11-04-2014, 09:04 PM

Thank you Genna, for the recommendation.

And welcome to this wonderful Forum!

Gencor · 11-05-2014, 12:22 AM

(11-04-2014 09:04 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Thank you Genna, for the recommendation.

And welcome to this wonderful Forum!

Thanks so much, Lincoln ToddFan! I have really enjoyed posting with everyone. This is a great forum!

Eva Elisabeth · 11-15-2014, 03:19 PM

I like the booktitle "American Queen", very simple but very telling and comprehensive. It's indeed such a simple and comprehensive title, almost like a brand name, that I wonder why no other author has yet come up with it. Was there no other personality in American history that would have matched the title? Any ideas/suggestions? And who was/is your personal American Queen, and why?

PS: The only other "American Queen" I found is a steamboat: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Queen

L Verge · 11-15-2014, 06:29 PM

(11-15-2014 03:19 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: I like the booktitle "American Queen", very simple but very telling and comprehensive. It's indeed such a simple and comprehensive title, almost like a brand name, that I wonder why no other author has yet come up with it. Was there no other personality in American history that would have matched the title? Any ideas/suggestions? And who was/is your personal American Queen, and why?

PS: The only other "American Queen" I found is a steamboat: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Queen

Staying in the world of politics, I think the American public (or at least her father-in-law) was well on the way to making Jackie Kennedy our American Queen. She was not the political animal that Kate was, however.

In our star-studded American culture today, however, it makes me tremble to think what "ladies" are held in high esteem.

Gencor · (This post was last modified: 11-15-2014 08:21 PM by Gencor.)

Mrs. Kennedy comes closest. While we didn't hear much about that side of Mrs. Kennedy, she was very political and stayed involved in democratic politics until her death. She was known for her soft spoken power and she was very ambitious for her husband. She entertained heads of state and so charmed Nikita Khrushchev, that it was said that he fell in love with her! She was so admired and so popular across the world that even President Kennedy knew that she was his best secret weapon. He took her to Paris and humbly announced that HE was the man who accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris. Mrs. Kennedy was every bit involved with politics during her husband's bid for the Presidency. She was a very studied and brilliant woman who I believe was truly the only other woman of that time in history who came close to being most like Kate Chase.

(11-15-2014 06:29 PM)L Verge Wrote:
(11-15-2014 03:19 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: I like the booktitle "American Queen", very simple but very telling and comprehensive. It's indeed such a simple and comprehensive title, almost like a brand name, that I wonder why no other author has yet come up with it. Was there no other personality in American history that would have matched the title? Any ideas/suggestions? And who was/is your personal American Queen, and why?

PS: The only other "American Queen" I found is a steamboat: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Queen

Staying in the world of politics, I think the American public (or at least her father-in-law) was well on the way to making Jackie Kennedy our American Queen. She was not the political animal that Kate was, however.

In our star-studded American culture today, however, it makes me tremble to think what "ladies" are held in high esteem.

I think of Lindy Boggs. I think that if women were not so restrained in the 19th century, Kate Chase would have been a great Senator in much the same fashion as Mrs. Boggs. I am from Louisiana and know her history. Mrs. Boggs was a true political woman, wife and mother. She was admired by everyone who knew her and as we have a saying in the south, she was indeed a "Steel Magnolia!"