Lincoln's 1865 Autopsy Report and Death Certificate

[Eva Elisabeth]

(02-06-2016 06:17 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Eva's reply above is outstanding. Please read it carefully as it is a terrific reply to your question.

Thank you, Roger.

[Anita]

Thanks to Susan and all who posted links to source documents and information on Lincoln's autopsy reports. I found the article by Dr. Houmes especially helpful. "A Doctor's View of the Lincoln Assasination" http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/linc...edical.htm
(Thanks for the link Laurie.) Dr. Houmes answers the question "Which bullet path do you think is the most accurate?"

I am confused by a statement at the end of Dr. Lattimer's report where he states there was great confusion on the part of the doctors as to why the bullet hole was on the left side of Lincoln's head when Booth approached Lincoln from Lincoln's right side.

I thought Booth approached from Lincoln's left side.

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(02-06-2016 06:17 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Eva's reply above is outstanding. Please read it carefully as it is a terrific reply to your question.

maharba, I second Roger and encourage you to read Eva's well thought out factual reply to your question. You've found your way to this forum so I hope you take advantage of the learning opportunities presented here.

[maharba]

Thanks Eva for posting the autopsy material on Abraham Lincoln. And the
internal links to RJN sites do work for me. Many others don't, my old system is dialup, still it pulls in many sites for me. And I appreciate the information on the 'swollen right hand of Lincoln" at the time of the 1860 plaster cast mould done. So far, the only non-head physical reference in the Woodward autopsy was that Lincoln appeared to be in fairly good condition. I also reread all the posts in this thread, and looked back at what I could on the open net, and then I referenced some of my scrapbook material.

So what about my question or information Lincoln right hand was greatly swollen on the night he was executed. I see this a few times, with slight variations, in old newspaper clippings and the source is the Reverend Noyes W. Miner. Apparently Rev N.W.Miner began delivering 'reminiscences of Lincoln' in a few lectures from about 1872-1882. Did he publish a book or a tract on the 'personal reminiscences'? I don't know. And Noyes Miner likely got his information on this topic from Mary Todd Lincoln (if any of this ever took place, at all). But the Reverend says that on that day of April 14 1865 it had been a long day of congratulatory handshaking, his
right hand was very sore and swollen, his right arm almost lame. And in one clipping, either the Reverend or someone else expanded on that (swollen hand) to say that this was noted by the folks who attended to Lincoln --either in his final illness or his autopsy. The right hand very noticeably larger than the left, from the swelling. But, thanks to the information provided by helpful folks here, I can say that I do not see that is noted in any of the autopsy material, at all.

Did Lincoln really ever know a Rev N.W.Miner or ever invite him to the White House, did Mary Todd Lincoln ever even speak to a Reverend Miner or tell Miner the intimate details of the day and night of the assassination? Or, is that only more of the examples of folks coming forward long after the fact and claiming they were friends with Lincoln? That...I do not know.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Maharba, Miner did write his reminiscenses/lectures down, and Kees once offered download of the original, handwritten manuscript, available also at the ALPLM. You may try to contact either. You will not like the following Miner wrote however:

"The very last moments of his conscious life were spent in conversation with her about his future plans, and what he wanted to do when his term of office expired. He said he wanted to visit the Holy Land and see the places hallowed by the footprints of the Saviour. He was saying there was no city he so much desired to see as Jerusalem; and with that word half spoken on his tongue, the bullet of the assassin entered his brain, and the soul of the great and good President was carried by angels to the New Jerusalem above.' If true, this would make Lincoln last words 'There is no place I so much desire to see as Jerusalem.'

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...ight=miner

[RJNorton]

Thank you, Eva.

In addition to what Eva said, Miner is also mentioned in the Fehrenbachers' book. Miner had contact with Mary after the assassination, and according to him she indicated she tried to persuade Abraham to not go to Ford's on April 14, 1865. But he replied:

"A large number of overjoyed and excited people will visit me tonight. I must have a little rest. My hands are swollen and my arms are lame by shaking hands with the multitude, and the people will pull me to pieces."

This quote is give a "D" (a quotation about whose authenticity there is more than average doubt). The year the quote was published was 1882.

No matter what the truth, I see no chance whatsoever that tired arms and hands had anything to do with the assassination.

Miner was an old friend and neighbor of the Lincolns in Springfield, but he was never their minister. He was pastor of the First Baptist Church.

[maharba]

Well that is interesting indeed. In this case, the mystery preacher actually did know Lincoln and talk to Mary Todd Lincoln, and a lengthy writ of Rev Noyes Miner personal reminisces does exist. Thanks for the additional information. If that is true that Noyes talked to Mary, it would make me consider there was something to the narrative of 'Lincoln having shaken many hands in congratulation' on April 14. too.
As you say, in the 1860 plaster casting of Lincoln's hands, that 'effect' was visible and palpable. But not on April 14th? I could recognise in some of the pastor Miner's narrative what I perceived as religious burnishes. The earliest scrap I have of Miner with his narrative is 1872 in the Quincy Illinois Whig?

An amusing topic that the Reverend (and others I've seen) wanted to deal with is the sinful notion of a Christian man ''going to the theater". Apparently Rev Noyes Miner had had several Christians tell him how shocked and dismayed they were that Lincoln would actually go into theatres. Probably, in the Symposium, this topic has been discussed before? When I make a 'search' into the Symposium, it only allows me to search for ONE word, and not a string of words.

[RJNorton]

(02-07-2016 07:56 AM)maharba Wrote:  Well that is interesting indeed. In this case, the mystery preacher actually did know Lincoln and talk to Mary Todd Lincoln

Yes. For awhile the Miners lived in the home directly across the street from the Lincolns in Springfield.

(02-07-2016 07:56 AM)maharba Wrote:  When I make a 'search' into the Symposium, it only allows me to search for ONE word, and not a string of words.

Try using Google. Start with multiple words and then follow with lincoln symposium. Example:

noyes miner lincoln symposium

Also, is there a reason why you won't upgrade from the dial-up internet access? This would allow you to see all kinds of scholarship not contained in those old clippings you have which often contain apocryphal information.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Re.:"If that is true that Noyes talked to Mary, it would make me consider there was something to the narrative of 'Lincoln having shaken many hands in congratulation' on April 14. too."

We've often to obviously no avail tried to show to you that a much later given account might be a result of false/expanded memory or embellishment. I would rely on the Fehrenbachers' assessment rating it "a quotation about whose authenticity there is more than average doubt". (If you, maharba, rely on Miner telling the truth you should subsequently also rely the Savior quote to be true and reconsider your "Lincoln-was-an-atheist" opinion.)

In W.E. Reck's "Last 24 Hours", a meticulously compiled timeline of Lincoln's last 24 hours, including sources, I cannot see any indication for Miner's words to be accurate.

Sadly you have revealed to us you are not willing to read or believe books/scholars, nor anything opposing your clippings, which makes serious discussions with you difficult (and tiresome), especially as it's usually the apocryphal tales you come up with and insist in being the one and only truth.

However, in this case, as Roger and I have said before, this wouldn't have made any difference in the assassination as (I repeat my words) he was cowardly* shot from the back while, unarmed, unaware, enjoying and focussing on a play in front of him, sitting.

[RJNorton]

(02-07-2016 11:34 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Re.:"If that is true that Noyes talked to Mary, it would make me consider there was something to the narrative of 'Lincoln having shaken many hands in congratulation' on April 14. too."

We've often to obviously no avail tried to show to you that a much later given account might be a result of false/expanded memory or embellishment. I would rely on the Fehrenbachers' assessment rating it "a quotation about whose authenticity there is more than average doubt". (If you, maharba, rely on Miner telling the truth you should subsequently also rely the Savior quote to be true and reconsider your "Lincoln-was-an-atheist" opinion.)

In W.E. Reck's "Last 24 Hours", a meticulously compiled timeline of Lincoln's last 24 hours, including sources, I cannot see any indication for Miner's words to be accurate.

Sadly you have revealed to us you are not willing to read or believe books/scholars, nor anything opposing your clippings, which makes serious discussions with you difficult (and tiresome), especially as it's usually the apocryphal tales you come up with.

Maharba, Eva is absolutely correct. I would also add the many people saw Lincoln on April 14, 1865, and I cannot recall a single account (other than Miner's many years later) that Lincoln complained of tired arms and hands. Most accounts I've read indicate Lincoln was feeling good and actually (purposely) sought out hands to shake that day. Several examples of this behavior are in W. Emerson Reck's A. Lincoln His Last 24 Hours. Eva also mentioned Reck's book - I would recommend this book to you, Maharba.

[Eva Elisabeth]

PS: If you add the people Lincoln met and dealt with on April 14 as Reck compiled, the sum will be less than 40 I'd estimate. Given his evident schedule and activities on that I also don't see where this would have left time for these multitude/many.

[L Verge]

(02-07-2016 12:09 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  PS: If you add the people Lincoln met and dealt with on April 14 as Reck compiled, the sum will be less than 40 I'd estimate. Given his evident schedule and activities on that I also don't see where this would have left time for these multitude/many.

I have to add to Eva's already correct statements that we have left out the good portion of Lincoln's afternoon on April 14, when he and Mrs. Lincoln went for a peaceful carriage ride and discussed their future after the Presidency. There was nothing in those several hours that would have aggravated his hands and arms.

[Eva Elisabeth]

...and there was the Cabinet meeting, plus the WH was not open to the public on that day.

[maharba]

Virtually the hallmark of the preacher Noyes Miner articles are that "Lincoln was in good spirits but tired and his right hand swollen, his right arm sore from handshaking". And he at least began saying this at lecture, by 1872. But since there are several other reports to the contrary: that Lincoln seemed fit and comfortable and did not complain (that last day of his life), then it must instead be that way. And the good preacher Rev.N.W.Miner surely was mistaken on that salient point, as well. I haven't 'searched' your Symposium, externally using google but I will try that method.

[Houmes]

(05-21-2014 08:11 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  

(05-21-2014 02:03 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  I found that Dr. Lattimer had written about this report back in 1965. Part of Dr. Lattimer's article can be read here. I do not recall him referencing Dr. Stone's report of the autopsy in his book Kennedy and Lincoln: Medical and Ballistic Comparisons of Their Assassinations.

Hi Roger, I read that book and I kind of wish I hadn't. Dr. Lattimer speculates that AL might have seen his killer out of his peripheral vision at the very last second, and attempted to flinch away from Booth by turning his head very sharply to the left.

That would account for the fact the assassin approached from the right but the bullet struck AL from the back left. It's horrifying. I like to imagine the poor guy simply never knew what hit him.

Also the autopsy report(the original) has blood stains. The doctors didn't bother to even wash their hands after they were done!?

It is unlikely President Lincoln saw or heard Booth. Henry Rathbones's statement on April 17th ("R" R.B. {JAO} P74 1865) in Edwards and Steers The Lincoln Assassination: The Evidence p1080-82 states he did not realize Booth was in the room until only after he heard the gunshot, looked over and saw Booth standing there.

President Lincoln never felt anything and was immediately comatose. The muzzle velocity of a .41 caliber deringer is approximately 400 feet/second. The fastest nerves (surrounded by an insulating myelin sheath to increase speed of conduction) inside the brain send chemical messengers at an average speed of 393 feet/second. The bullet would have been out in the Ford's Theatre audience before Lincoln would have felt it, if he had been conscious.

The theory of germs causing infection was unheard of until Joseph Lister published the concept in 1867. Few Civil War surgeons washed their hands between or before operations, they merely wiped their hands and surgical instruments and moved on. Hygiene was notoriously poor, explaining why infection killed more soldiers than battle wounds.

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(05-22-2014 01:41 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  It all sounds horrifying, ghastly. Dr. Lattimer wrote that the .44 caliber bullet struck the back of the president's skull with the force of a sledgehammer. I suppose that is what shattered both his eye sockets?

I can't imagine him or anyone else surviving such an injury, but of course a few doctors have suggested that modern medicine might have saved AL. They note that former congresswoman Gabrielle Gifford's brain injury was almost identical to Lincoln's, except the bullet that hit her brain passed out of her skull, Lincoln's did not.

The comparison with Gabrielle Gifford's has frequently been compared to President Lincoln's, but her wound was totally different, except for the fact that they were both wounded on the left side. Her wound tract was much higher in the left side of the brain, missing the vital central structures. It is much more lateral, in addition. This is proven by the fact that she never lost consciousness and was able to follow commands during her initial examination arriving at the hospital. Google pictures of her and you can see where the skin flap on her forehead is, at the bullet site where they had to remove part of her skull to prevent swelling. Lincoln's wound, if the bullet had exited the brain, was much more near the midline and would have been just slightly above the eye socket.

[Houmes]

(05-22-2014 05:57 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  [quote='LincolnToddFan' pid='33343' dateline='1400737301']

Hi Toia. wsanto (Dr. William Santo) of our forum is among the doctors who feel this way. Here is a quote from a post Dr. Santo made on the forum last August:

"Assuming the bullet hadn't crossed the midline (per Dr. Woodward's report), Lincoln's entire right hemisphere was uninjured. The bullet did not significantly injure any major centers in the brain (except Broca's area that controls speech, and some motor and sensory regions). His right hemisphere could have potentially learned, with a lot of rehabilitation, some of the functions that were damaged on the left. I disagree that he would have survived as a "vegetable". He very well may have survived and been able think, learn, and communicate in a useful way."

I should emphasize that Bill is referring to 2014 medical knowledge, not 1865.

I respectfully disagree with Dr. Santo's belief that President Lincoln could have survived with modern medicare care today, and if Lincoln did survive he would not be in a vegitative or profoundly limited state. His argument echoes the presentation of Dr. Thomas Scalea at the University of Maryland Clinical Conference in 2007, and both doctors suggest they have not seen or had access to Dr Robert King Stone's autopsy documentation made during the autopsy. Or perhaps they have a great deal of hubris. Dr. Stone recorded far more brain damage than any of the other accounts made later by the pathologists, Dr. Joseph A. Barnes, personal letters made by those at the autopsy, or later journal reports. Dr. Stone noted the central structures of the brain including the ventricle (producing cerebral spinal fluid cushions and provides nutrients to the brain), thalamus (coordinates motor, sensory actions in the body, and state of consciousness), optic nerve (vision), and left frontal lobe were massively damaged. In Dr Stone's words, it "ploughed" through them, basically destroying the left side of the brain.