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Those Booth Horses Again -
04-12-2014, 12:24 PM
Post: #46
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
Re post 44--Laurie I agree with your exasperation over where the leg was broken. I hoped that I made that point somewhere in my droning on. Who cares? We cannot prove any of the theories.

Don't let the fact I agreed with you a couple of times on this thread go to your head, Blondie. . . .
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04-12-2014, 12:28 PM
Post: #47
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
Jerry, I think you just garbled the intent of what I was trying to say. I think the break occurred on landing on the stage, and Booth was not in a prone position. He immediately straightened up and began his hasty retreat without even realizing that something had broken - and his boots stabilized the fracture.
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04-12-2014, 12:58 PM
Post: #48
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
Rick Smith rode Hunter seat as a teen and more and I have packed into the Grand Canyon for the US Govt and repaired the trail using mules for 5 years, and rode and shod horses and mules for 30 years. One does not get on a recalcitrant animal in the field with a game leg without a lot help. I do not recall Peanut John providing help--Hey! maybe he did?

Great post, Bill, and thanks for the plug. I actually rode from age 4 to about 24, when I left the farm. We raised thoroughbreds and were fox hunters, which simply means we were rough riding in all kinds of conditions for 6 hours at a time while wearing elegant clothing. You are right about the difficulties of mounting in the field after coming off your horse. My hunter slipped and came down on me once, but I was able to clear the stirrups and retain hold of the reins. The field was very muddy and my hunter, 16 hands & 1100 lbs., did not roll over which most probably saved me from injury. My father was near at the time and was able to ride up on the off side and steady my gelding {who was pretty shook up and shying all over the place} by grabbing the bridle. This helped me to be able to bring him under some sort of control and throw my leg over. Without my father's aid, things would have been a bit more difficult to say the least.
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04-12-2014, 01:04 PM
Post: #49
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
(04-12-2014 11:37 AM)L Verge Wrote:  I forget the details, but Mike contacted a library or association somewhere here in the D.C. suburbs, and the personnel there provided him with the information that Booth's type of fracture was the most common for riders when their horse falls and rolls.

I am resorting back to one of my unanswered questions that I have posed for years: Would Booth's boots have relieved some of the pressure on the leg, coupled with adrenaline, allowing him to mount? It seems to me that Booth was in constant motion from the time that he landed on stage and didn't have time to realize that anything was wrong until he was already on the horse.

My other comment has become my motto over the past 25 or so years: Who gives a **** where the leg was broken? I'm sorry guys, but I am so sick of this constant debate becoming the focal point of the Lincoln assassination.

Thank you for saying that. His leg broke. The way it broke it not going to change history. It's the exact same story either way.
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04-12-2014, 02:00 PM
Post: #50
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
I do not think that Booth's broken leg is the focal point of the Lincoln assassination any more than any other point of interest; such as what Lincoln had for breakfast on April 14, or whether John Surratt was in the City or in Canada, etc.

Historical details are important.

It is just one of the many interesting facets of the story.
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04-12-2014, 02:36 PM
Post: #51
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
i get the sense you all are a little frustrated with me for bringing this up again but I respectfully disagree that the "where he broke his leg" is unimportant.

Some have speculated Booth went into the boardinghouse after the assassination to get supplies and a new hat before continuing his escape. This becomes less likely if he broke his leg at Ford's. If I want to believe this theory I have to believe the horse fell and broke Booth's leg later in the escape.

Others speculate that Booth only changed the course of his escape from a planned northern route through southern Maryland to Mudd's house
because of his horse fall and his newly injured leg. If I want to believe this theory, again, I have to believe the horse-fall theory.

The primary source for the theory that Booth broke his leg at Ford's is his diary.

For me, the best evidence there was a horse fall would be evidence that the horse was injured. Mr Kauffman says that Thomas Davis "told investigators" that Booth's horse had a "badly swollen shoulder" and was "lame". I would like to read that statement/letter/telegram Mr Kauffman used as his primary source. I was hoping someone knew of it.

The reason I want to see it is because it is contradictory to the statement given by Thomas Davis in "The Evidence" (see previous post). It also seems contradictory to Mudd's statement where he states he saw this horse (never mentioning an injury) when it was rode by Davey Herold the next day while he and Mudd were trying to find a carriage all the way to Bryantown. It also seems contradictory to the fact that the horse was ridden many more tough miles along the escape before being ditched in the pines.

Thanks--

Bill C

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04-12-2014, 02:57 PM
Post: #52
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
This is for Jenny (a Texan, I believe),

I spent most of the 1960s on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon or over over the Rim.

I had a medical exemption for Viet Nam--I thought of the absurdity of that often as I swung a pick and shovel and wrestled with mules. But one does not argue with Army medical officers. I also missed all the anti-war demonstrations, the Civil Rights demonstrations, the race riots, and God knows what else, in the real world.

The North Rim was hog-heaven for a young fellow like me. We got to eat at the dudes' table which meant good food (the South Rim served day-old junk to employees) at $5 a day, waited for the bus loads of French Canadian school teachers to arrive each summer, dated Mormon girls, took weekend trips into Utah parks, stayed at my roommates' Mormon homes, got fabulous pay, got time and a half for forest fires, and lived like kings. I also met my wife who worked there for the concessioner, and later learned to shoe horses and mules.

I got my PhD in history and taught in college for 5 years, could not stand it, and went back to the ranch, so to speak, and spent the next 30 years as a professional farrier, and wrote historical books and articles in my spare time.

All in all, it was one of the best times of my life, to say the least.
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04-12-2014, 03:21 PM
Post: #53
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
(04-12-2014 02:36 PM)wsanto Wrote:  i get the sense you all are a little frustrated with me for bringing this up again but I respectfully disagree that the "where he broke his leg" is unimportant.

Some have speculated Booth went into the boardinghouse after the assassination to get supplies and a new hat before continuing his escape. This becomes less likely if he broke his leg at Ford's. If I want to believe this theory I have to believe the horse fell and broke Booth's leg later in the escape.

Others speculate that Booth only changed the course of his escape from a planned northern route through southern Maryland to Mudd's house
because of his horse fall and his newly injured leg. If I want to believe this theory, again, I have to believe the horse-fall theory.

The primary source for the theory that Booth broke his leg at Ford's is his diary.

For me, the best evidence there was a horse fall would be evidence that the horse was injured. Mr Kauffman says that Thomas Davis "told investigators" that Booth's horse had a "badly swollen shoulder" and was "lame". I would like to read that statement/letter/telegram Mr Kauffman used as his primary source. I was hoping someone knew of it.

The reason I want to see it is because it is contradictory to the statement given by Thomas Davis in "The Evidence" (see previous post). It also seems contradictory to Mudd's statement where he states he saw this horse (never mentioning an injury) when it was rode by Davey Herold the next day while he and Mudd were trying to find a carriage all the way to Bryantown. It also seems contradictory to the fact that the horse was ridden many more tough miles along the escape before being ditched in the pines.

Thanks--

Bill C

Not frustrated at all, Bill.

It was a great topic to introduce. I believe that Booth's leg was broken when the mare slipped and fell on him, just as I believe that the horses were not destroyed.

Guess I better not introduce that again.

Rick
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04-12-2014, 06:37 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2014 06:50 PM by L Verge.)
Post: #54
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
(04-12-2014 02:57 PM)Wild Bill Wrote:  This is for Jenny (a Texan, I believe),

I spent most of the 1960s on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon or over over the Rim.

I had a medical exemption for Viet Nam--I thought of the absurdity of that often as I swung a pick and shovel and wrestled with mules. But one does not argue with Army medical officers. I also missed all the anti-war demonstrations, the Civil Rights demonstrations, the race riots, and God knows what else, in the real world.

The North Rim was hog-heaven for a young fellow like me. We got to eat at the dudes' table which meant good food (the South Rim served day-old junk to employees) at $5 a day, waited for the bus loads of French Canadian school teachers to arrive each summer, dated Mormon girls, took weekend trips into Utah parks, stayed at my roommates' Mormon homes, got fabulous pay, got time and a half for forest fires, and lived like kings. I also met my wife who worked there for the concessioner, and later learned to shoe horses and mules.

I got my PhD in history and taught in college for 5 years, could not stand it, and went back to the ranch, so to speak, and spent the next 30 years as a professional farrier, and wrote historical books and articles in my spare time.

All in all, it was one of the best times of my life, to say the least.

Congratulations, Jenny! You have gotten more personal information out of Bill in one day than I have been able to get in 25 years! And, the government should be very glad that they kept him isolated per se in the Grand Canyon during the 60s and 70s.

"Don't let the fact I agreed with you a couple of times on this thread go to your head, Blondie. . . ."

Blondie's response: I learned a long time ago not to trust you, you old sidewinder. And, I say that lovingly after all these years of sparring with you. You are one of those frustrating individuals in my life that I cannot decide whether to hug, ignore, or kick.

wsanto - I'm not frustrated with you at all because I happen to agree with you, and I think medical science would also. I will continue to harp on the subject that Booth was in constant motion of some sort from the time he dashed to the front of the box - unlike others who had to mount after being tossed to the ground and having a chance to take a ten second breather before remounting.

I also agree that I have never seen Thomas Davis's statement saying specifically what he is quoted as saying - unless he testified at the 1867 Surratt trial (which God himself cannot get me to peruse).

Finally, I have a typically female question: If Booth did fall from his horse, he would have been quite muddy (which some of you have stated). Would Dr. Mudd allow him to sit on his wife's fine sofa in the family parlor (which in the 19th century was reserved for "real" guests)? Likewise, would those dirty trousers be able to be pushed up to the knee in order to set the leg, or was it necessary to get the trouser leg out of the way in order to do the procedure? Would Booth be put to bed in muddy condition? Did he ride back off the property twelve hours later in the same dirty condition? I think you catch my drift...
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04-12-2014, 07:18 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2014 07:21 PM by JMadonna.)
Post: #55
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
(04-12-2014 06:37 PM)L Verge Wrote:  [quote='Wild Bill' pid='31805' dateline='1397332621']

"Don't let the fact I agreed with you a couple of times on this thread go to your head, Blondie. . . ."

Blondie's response: I learned a long time ago not to trust you, you old sidewinder. And, I say that lovingly after all these years of sparring with you. You are one of those frustrating individuals in my life that I cannot decide whether to hug, ignore, or kick.


@ Just kiss his horse and be done with it. - JM
_______________________________________
wsanto - I'm not frustrated with you at all because I happen to agree with you, and I think medical science would also. I will continue to harp on the subject that Booth was in constant motion of some sort from the time he dashed to the front of the box - unlike others who had to mount after being tossed to the ground and having a chance to take a ten second breather before remounting.
________________________________________________________________________________​__________________________________
@ Hey, For nearly 1,000 years, Aristotle’s view of a stationary Earth at the center of a revolving universe dominated natural philosophy. The fact that all the planets had wildly eccentric orbits to make it work was simply an accepted fact. Bill's description of Booth with no hat or gun then appearing with a hat and gun is enough to make an inquisitive person question his original assumptions. It wouldn't be the first time an egotist wrote a lie on a piece of paper. (Please don't call it a diary) - JM
____________________________________________________________________
Finally, I have a typically female question: If Booth did fall from his horse, he would have been quite muddy (which some of you have stated). Would Dr. Mudd allow him to sit on his wife's fine sofa in the family parlor (which in the 19th century was reserved for "real" guests)? Likewise, would those dirty trousers be able to be pushed up to the knee in order to set the leg, or was it necessary to get the trouser leg out of the way in order to do the procedure? Would Booth be put to bed in muddy condition? Did he ride back off the property twelve hours later in the same dirty condition? I think you catch my drift...
________________________________________________________________________________​_________________________________
@ Probably had a spare suit in his saddlebags, he seemed to have everything else in there. Seriously, mud is a combo of dirt and water. After riding for a few hours one can assume that the water would evaporate and the left over dirt easily brushed away. - JM
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04-12-2014, 07:27 PM
Post: #56
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
There comes a time when polite ladies turn their backs and walk away. This is one of those times because my tongue is encouraging me to continue, and my brain is telling me that it's not worth the effort.
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04-12-2014, 08:47 PM
Post: #57
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
Thank you for the personal story, Wild Bill! That sounds like a very wonderful time! Wink

"Right or wrong, God judge me, not man."
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04-13-2014, 08:06 AM (This post was last modified: 04-13-2014 10:18 AM by wsanto.)
Post: #58
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
Okay, I found it. Right in front of me the whole time. (A little embarrassed I guess)

This is an exceprt of an examination of Thomas Davis by Col. Jno A. Foster on April 29th 1865

Q. What kind of horses were they?

A. One was a roan horse, medium size; a mark about the saddle where he had been hurt; his shoulder was swelled right smart; mark was behind the saddle, an old sore; the swelling of the shoulder was fresh; swelled right smart; I cannot remember whether he had white stockings; or whether he had any mark upon his forehead; he was a light roan. The saddle was light, government blanket with a row of holes down it. The other was a small bay mare. The colored man told me he had a white star on his forehead. I did not notice; she was lame in her left front leg she was very lame before taken out of the stable and taken to water about 10 or 11 o'clock


Of interest; it was the horse (the light roan) that Herold rode out of Washington that had the freshly swollen shoulder. Mr. Kauffman's website is incorrect when it says that Davis "told investigators that Booth's mare had a badly swollen left shoulder". I contacted Mr Kauffman (via his website) to alert him of this mistake so he may correct this on his website (unless he surmises that the horse fall occurred after Herold and Booth switched horses. But that really doesn't fit the narrative of his theory.)

Davis does claim that the horse (the small bay mare) Booth rode out of Washington was "very lame in her left front leg before taken out of the stable to water at 10 or 11 o'clock". This was the horse that was given to Herold shortly thereafter (assuming no longer lame) for his ride to Bryantown in search of a carriage with Dr. Mudd. It is also the horse that Davis describes in his subsequent statement as a "small bay mare in excellent trim, with a piece of skin off on the inside of the left foreleg about as big a silver quarter"

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04-13-2014, 10:12 AM
Post: #59
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
Ah, Laurie, You are lucky that I am such a sweetheart
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04-13-2014, 11:06 AM
Post: #60
RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
Quote:RE: Those Booth Horses Again -
Ah, Laurie, You are lucky that I am such a sweetheart

Agreed!

"The Past is a foreign country...they do things differently there" - L. P. Hartley
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