Lincoln, Douglas, and Speed

[L Verge]

I had an interesting phone call today from a gentleman in upstate New York who has a miniature oil on ivory depicting Lincoln, Douglas, and Speed. He believes that it was painted by one of the artists in Canandaigua, New York.

The gentleman says that Stephen Douglas and Lincoln once opposed each other in a court case held in Canandaigua. Does anyone (Herb?) have information on this? I know that Lincoln went against Stanton in the Manny vs. McCormick Reaper Case held in Cincinnati, but what about Douglas vs. Lincoln on the legal matters?

P.S. I referred the gentleman to Harold Holzer.

P.P.S. It was also the first time that I have actually talked to someone who believes that there is (and has been) world control under the auspices of The Illuminati. For awhile, I read up on that theory, but finally got disgusted and gave up. Of course, some think that the Illuminati disposed of Lincoln.

[RJNorton]

Laurie, I just checked Ralph Gary's book, and it indicates Lincoln was never in Canandaigua, New York. Douglas and Lincoln were on opposing sides in a few Illinois court cases but never one in Canandaigua.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I was astonished to read Lincoln should have been involved in a case in NY, so I tried to find out about that.

Despite Roger's info (and Canandaigua is not mentioned in Bernhardt Wall's book either), a look at Douglas' CV is IMO a further contra-argument:

Stephen Douglas was born in Brandon, Vermont, in 1813. In 1830 his family moved to Canandaigua, NY. (Here we have Canandaigua, but he hadn't even begun to study law then.) He migrated to Winchester, Illinois, in 1833, where he first worked as a teacher, and studied law. He was admitted to the Illinois bar in 1834 (Lincoln in 1836).

Douglas was appointed as State's Attorney of Morgan County in 1834, serving until 1836. In 1836, he was elected to the Illinois House of Representatives, and was appointed an associate justice of the Illinois Supreme Court in 1841. Then, from 1843-46, he served in the US House, and from 1847-61 in the Senate.

With both Lincoln and Douglas based in Illinois during their legal career and practice, is it likely they had been involved in a case in NY?

[L Verge]

Roger and Eva - Once I got off the phone with this gentleman, I did a quick Google search and also consulted Allen Guelzo's book, Lincoln and Douglas. I came up with no information to support this claim either. It will be interesting to see what Harold Holzer's opinion is.

[HerbS]

Laurie,I do know that Douglas graduated from Canandaigua High School.The rest is news to me! I only live 4 miles from Canandaigua now,so I will be on it.Susan B Anthony's trial was moved to there.

[HerbS]

I just found that Douglas went to Canandaigua High School for only 3yrs and studied Law there.There was nothing on "our"artist!

[L Verge]

Thanks everyone for helping in the search. I can believe that the miniature was painted by a Canandaigua artist because of that town's history as a sort of intellectual/artistic center. However, I suspect that the artist just happened to choose Douglas, Speed, and Lincoln as the subjects for perhaps some other reason.

[HerbS]

Who Knows? But,Laurie I feel your theory maybe correct! Stephen Douglas did attend Canandaigua Academy for 3yrs to study law.I found out that CA was a private boys college prep school.Now,It's a very good public,co-ed high school.Canandaigua Lake is 20miles long and 2miles wide.It's property value just surpassed Lake Tahoe! The Seneca's called it"The Chosen Spot".

[L Verge]

A number of years ago, we brought a busload of Surratt people to that area on a tour of historic sites and wineries in that area. It is a beautiful place.

[Liz Rosenthal]

(03-27-2014 08:17 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I know that Lincoln went against Stanton in the Manny vs. McCormick Reaper Case held in Cincinnati, but what about Douglas vs. Lincoln on the legal matters?

Just a little point of information. Lincoln and Stanton were not on opposing sides in that litigation. Lincoln had been under the impression that he was on the Manny defense team and had, in fact, been hired for the purpose. However, in between the time he was retained, when he did some investigating of Manny's invention and wrote a legal brief and the time he showed up in Cincinnati to join the defense, the attorneys who had initially sought his assistance decided they didn't need him anymore but didn't bother to tell him. So when he showed up in Cincinnati, he found Stanton heading the defense and being openly hostile to him. Lincoln was ostracized from the other defense lawyers and even overheard Stanton referring to him as follows: "What is that long-armed ape doing here?" I know that this story isn't relevant to the question of whether Lincoln and Douglas opposed each other in a legal case in upstate New York, but the little episode does provide insight into Lincoln's remarkable character.

Lincoln's Cincinnati experience hurt his feelings enormously. Stanton was truly a [insert expletive here] to Lincoln, and most people, just because they're human, probably would never have forgiven him. There are plenty of people in political life who would have thenceforth considered him a political enemy and never have associated with him even if they agreed on the issues. Yet, somehow, Lincoln got past his hurt feelings and, because he admired Stanton's abilities, appointed him Secretary of War to replace the corrupt and incompetent Cameron. This was a truly great decision.

That's our Lincoln!

[Dan Pearson]

Am I the only one who thinks that the odd component in this portrait is Speed? Laurie, I did not see if you mentioned whether it was Joshua or James Speed depicted. But either one would have been an odd choice. Were it Joshua, the relationship among the three would have been quite early, and certainly Springfield centered. Speed was a merchant, and not involved in any sort of legal career. James, who was attorney general, did not really enter the Lincoln story until later in the presidential years--long after Douglas's death. Neither Speed had a New York connection that I know of, but rather hailed from Kentucky. Either would be a strange choice for a triple portrait. Could the third person not be Speed, but another person?

[RJNorton]

Very good point, Dan. I am just guessing, but in my mind, I had pictured Joshua (assuming the third person is indeed Speed). Possibly this didn't have anything to do with the legal profession, and the artist was portraying some of the male members of Springfield's coterie? I don't know. This is just wild speculation on my part; I have no clue why an artist in Canandaigua would be interested in the coterie members.

[L Verge]

I really have no idea because I was depending strictly on what the caller was telling me about his possession. He was very well-spoken on his knowledge of Lincoln (and I am a complete novice about Lincoln's early years). I asked if he could take a photo and send it to me, but he said he was not into technology. It was then that I put him in contact with Harold Holzer. I have heard nothing from either him or Harold since. And I really have no burning desire to contact the man again because he firmly believes in the Illuminati version of world control. I have enough problems keeping track of the bad guys in the U.S. realm of things...