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A Wonderful Find ...
03-24-2014, 06:39 PM
Post: #31
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
This is always an interesting debate when it comes up (you're welcome!) and good points are always made on both sides. The forum Doctors chimed in a few months ago and cleared up what we were looking at when viewing the Booth vertebrae and Bill and Rick have shown that mechanically, it was entirely possible. Coupled with Woodward's autopsy report, that cleared up that the shot did not enter from the rear.

With the lack of evidence regarding Corbett making the shot, (A young Garrett was the only "eyewitness"), what seals my opinion is Booth's statements and state of mind at the end and a revolver with an empty chamber being pulled from his dying hand. He was literally celebrating his act before he got off the stage at Ford's. Witness Ferguson stated he stopped near the wings, shook the knife and said "I've done it!". Next he bragged to Lloyd and I think it was over after that. His rebuke by Mudd, his treatment by Cox and others until finally he feels the warmth of a fire, eats at a table and sleeps in a real bed at the Garrett's. Then that rug is pulled out from under him and he's outdoors again. He first told Jones he wouldn't be taken alive and told Jett he'd kill himself. The fact that this might end badly was on his mind from early on. He wrote in his date book that he'd prayed he'd be spared the indignity of suffering the death of a criminal and asked God to spare him that. Whether he did or not will never be known, but I think he spared himself of that.

"There are few subjects that ignite more casual, uninformed bigotry and condescension from elites in this nation more than Dixie - Jonah Goldberg"
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03-24-2014, 07:44 PM
Post: #32
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
(03-24-2014 06:39 PM)J. Beckert Wrote:  This is always an interesting debate when it comes up (you're welcome!) and good points are always made on both sides. The forum Doctors chimed in a few months ago and cleared up what we were looking at when viewing the Booth vertebrae and Bill and Rick have shown that mechanically, it was entirely possible. Coupled with Woodward's autopsy report, that cleared up that the shot did not enter from the rear.

With the lack of evidence regarding Corbett making the shot, (A young Garrett was the only "eyewitness"), what seals my opinion is Booth's statements and state of mind at the end and a revolver with an empty chamber being pulled from his dying hand. He was literally celebrating his act before he got off the stage at Ford's. Witness Ferguson stated he stopped near the wings, shook the knife and said "I've done it!". Next he bragged to Lloyd and I think it was over after that. His rebuke by Mudd, his treatment by Cox and others until finally he feels the warmth of a fire, eats at a table and sleeps in a real bed at the Garrett's. Then that rug is pulled out from under him and he's outdoors again. He first told Jones he wouldn't be taken alive and told Jett he'd kill himself. The fact that this might end badly was on his mind from early on. He wrote in his date book that he'd prayed he'd be spared the indignity of suffering the death of a criminal and asked God to spare him that. Whether he did or not will never be known, but I think he spared himself of that.

Well said, Joe. I believe that you have pulled it all together in a very concise statement.
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03-24-2014, 09:40 PM
Post: #33
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
Well son, I guess we can call this a wrap until we can find some whiskey, cigars and do what Kate H said men do when they get together.....

This still keeps me in stitches. Thanks, Kate. "Masters of the universe", she says....

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...l#pid28739

"There are few subjects that ignite more casual, uninformed bigotry and condescension from elites in this nation more than Dixie - Jonah Goldberg"
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03-25-2014, 07:39 AM
Post: #34
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
(03-24-2014 09:40 PM)J. Beckert Wrote:  Well son, I guess we can call this a wrap until we can find some whiskey, cigars and do what Kate H said men do when they get together.....

This still keeps me in stitches. Thanks, Kate. "Masters of the universe", she says....

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...l#pid28739

I will look forward to it.
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03-26-2014, 04:30 PM
Post: #35
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
A point or 2. Examination of the vertebrae shows a traversing downward angle. Could this angle be self-inflicted yes. Dr. Woodward did not describe any evidence of a contact injury, this alone would seem to preclude a close muzzle contact. Statistical probability >0.5 confidence level if Woodward is accurate is in favor of a wound inflicted from a distance.

I question in my neighbor Dr. Mudd rebuffed Booth. I am aware that JWB stayed at the good doctors house on at least one occasion. I also know Booth met Dr. Sam at church. Dr. Mudd always stated he found out about the assassination from his visit to Bryantown .Whether from those he met or from Dana's men I have never been sure. Why then would he rebuke an injured acquaintance regardless of the hour?
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03-27-2014, 07:17 AM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2014 07:18 AM by Jenny.)
Post: #36
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
Rick, excellent demonstration photo! Great work on the possible suicide. I really enjoyed this thread!

Quote:Possible, yes
Probable - not to me.

I am with Gene on this one. It *could* have happened but I think Booth was shot by Corbett.

"Right or wrong, God judge me, not man."
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03-27-2014, 07:41 AM
Post: #37
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
(03-27-2014 07:17 AM)Jenny Wrote:  Rick, excellent demonstration photo! Great work on the possible suicide. I really enjoyed this thread!

Quote:Possible, yes
Probable - not to me.

I am with Gene on this one. It *could* have happened but I think Booth was shot by Corbett.
Jenny,

Thanks for the kind words. The model was my son, Joseph. His mother does not like the photo. She was very much opposed at his pointing a pistol at himself, but knew it was in the interest of an historic endeavor.

Rick
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03-27-2014, 07:52 AM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2014 07:52 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)
Post: #38
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
This is an interesting theory and argumentation. Well, I am no expert and thus not in any serious position not to believe or to raise doubts on the "established" version, that JWB was shot by Corbett. But I've never understood why JWB allowed to let him being shot, or hanged in case of surrender. There was no chance of escape, he was in a trap like a hunted animal. Does it match his personality to allow the "enemy" to take "control" over him, and to give away being the director of his "performance"? He didn't seem to me like someone who would ever have allowed anyone to decide about him, his life, his actions, his fate. Is this a wrong impression of JWB? What advantage did he from his point of view have from being shot or arrested, tried, and hanged rather than "directing" his end himself?
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03-27-2014, 08:47 AM
Post: #39
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
(03-27-2014 07:52 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  This is an interesting theory and argumentation. Well, I am no expert and thus not in any serious position not to believe or to raise doubts on the "established" version, that JWB was shot by Corbett. But I've never understood why JWB allowed to let him being shot, or hanged in case of surrender. There was no chance of escape, he was in a trap like a hunted animal. Does it match his personality to allow the "enemy" to take "control" over him, and to give away being the director of his "performance"? He didn't seem to me like someone who would ever have allowed anyone to decide about him, his life, his actions, his fate. Is this a wrong impression of JWB? What advantage did he from his point of view have from being shot or arrested, tried, and hanged rather than "directing" his end himself?

Fraulein Eva,

Your impression is not a wrong one. I believe that you have very clearly and concisely outlined JWB's personality.

Rick
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03-27-2014, 10:59 AM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2014 10:59 AM by Francis Farrell.)
Post: #40
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
: What advantage did he from his point of view have from being shot or arrested, tried, and hanged rather than "directing" his end himself?"

Might I propose that Mr. Booth did in fact direct the final scene?

Macbeth, Antony, Hamlet all choose the ending for themselves. all to the event any of are - were masters of their own fate.

Booth chose to make it an end fitting for the tragedian. he went not into that night quietly, but chose to step boldly .

"The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it."

Does not this apply to J. Wilkes Booth? Booth after all thought of AL as a despot and he had to play the role of Brutus , and Cassius and act for those who wanted to protect Rome (The Union) from dictatorship and despotism.

He fulfilled the role= and no doubt at his own funeral he would have understood this from the Bard of Scotland (slightly out of context but applicable)

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

: What advantage did he from his point of view have from being shot or arrested, tried, and hanged rather than "directing" his end himself?"

Might I propose that Mr. Booth did in fact direct the final scene?

Macbeth, Antony, Hamlet all choose the ending for themselves. all to the event any of are - were masters of their own fate.

Booth chose to make it an end fitting for the tragedian. he went not into that night quietly, but chose to step boldly .

"The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it."

Does not this apply to J. Wilkes Booth? Booth after all thought of AL as a despot and he had to play the role of Brutus , and Cassius and act for those who wanted to protect Rome (The Union) from dictatorship and despotism.

He fulfilled the role= and no doubt at his own funeral he would have understood this from the Bard of Scotland (slightly out of context but applicable)

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.
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03-27-2014, 11:21 AM
Post: #41
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
(03-27-2014 10:59 AM)Francis Farrell Wrote:  : What advantage did he from his point of view have from being shot or arrested, tried, and hanged rather than "directing" his end himself?"

Might I propose that Mr. Booth did in fact direct the final scene?

Macbeth, Antony, Hamlet all choose the ending for themselves. all to the event any of are - were masters of their own fate.

Booth chose to make it an end fitting for the tragedian. he went not into that night quietly, but chose to step boldly .

"The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it."

Does not this apply to J. Wilkes Booth? Booth after all thought of AL as a despot and he had to play the role of Brutus , and Cassius and act for those who wanted to protect Rome (The Union) from dictatorship and despotism.

He fulfilled the role= and no doubt at his own funeral he would have understood this from the Bard of Scotland (slightly out of context but applicable)

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

: What advantage did he from his point of view have from being shot or arrested, tried, and hanged rather than "directing" his end himself?"

Might I propose that Mr. Booth did in fact direct the final scene?

Macbeth, Antony, Hamlet all choose the ending for themselves. all to the event any of are - were masters of their own fate.

Booth chose to make it an end fitting for the tragedian. he went not into that night quietly, but chose to step boldly .

"The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it."

Does not this apply to J. Wilkes Booth? Booth after all thought of AL as a despot and he had to play the role of Brutus , and Cassius and act for those who wanted to protect Rome (The Union) from dictatorship and despotism.

He fulfilled the role= and no doubt at his own funeral he would have understood this from the Bard of Scotland (slightly out of context but applicable)

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Francis,

If you read Eva's post, you will see that is precisely what she is driving at.

Rick
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03-27-2014, 12:34 PM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2014 01:03 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)
Post: #42
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
Yep. Vielen Dank, Herr Rick.
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03-27-2014, 02:58 PM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2014 03:08 PM by J. Beckert.)
Post: #43
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
(03-27-2014 07:52 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Is this a wrong impression of JWB? What advantage did he from his point of view have from being shot or arrested, tried, and hanged rather than "directing" his end himself?

I think you're right, Eva, and what I've always looked at in this situation were Booth's own words and actions. He adamantly refused to give up. Prepare a stretcher boys, there's going to be another stain on the old Banner. He told several people, starting with Thomas Jones I believe, that he'd never be taken alive and he told Jett he'd kill himself. He was well aware of what awaited him if he were captured and returned to the North. One of the men who was part of the detail that crossed the Rappahannock river with Booth, Mortimer Ruggles, later stated that he knew the barn well and Corbett, from the spot he stated he was standing, could not have seen Booth, much less have shot him.

The photo of Rick's son shows how, with the gun angled slightly upward, the path of the bullet traveled exactly as reported by Dr. Woodward. The gun would have to be held that way to produce the track it made. With Corbett on the same level as Booth, the story has to be tweaked to make it work, which makes the "Booth stumbled" take on it necessary, but that's just conjecture that makes it convenient (and necessary) to believe Corbett's tale.

"There are few subjects that ignite more casual, uninformed bigotry and condescension from elites in this nation more than Dixie - Jonah Goldberg"
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03-27-2014, 03:22 PM
Post: #44
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
OK, Rick, Joe, and Eva -- Stop it! You're starting to make sense!
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03-27-2014, 05:34 PM
Post: #45
RE: A Wonderful Find ...
(03-27-2014 03:22 PM)L Verge Wrote:  OK, Rick, Joe, and Eva -- Stop it! You're starting to make sense!

Laurie,

You know that's what we do, darlin'.

Rick

PS: Can't help adding the 'Darlin." Reminds me of Lonesome Dove.

Gus McCrea always referred to the character named Laurie as, "Laurie Darlin'.
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