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Mike B. · (This post was last modified: 12-14-2013 10:14 AM by Mike B..)

(12-14-2013 09:05 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(12-13-2013 07:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Strongly disagree on this point.
Lincoln became President because of georgraphy, availability, the failure of the Seward team, his awesome political skills and judgement, the contacts he made on the circut that ran his campaign. To say that Mary "made" Lincoln President is really unhistorical. It is hard to point to any evidence this is true."
It was a contemporate who said this. Can a statement by a contemporate be considered unhistorical? It is what Albert S. Edwards surely told from his very personal point of view, but still witnessed as a contemporate. Also, the statement wasn't "Mary made Lincoln President" but "she had more to do with making Mr. Lincoln President than many people think". This is absolutely not identical! I agree on all the factors you listed having their share in A. Lincoln's election. But Mary also backed him and wasn't passive, I think she pushed him additionally (especially emotionally) to his personal striving. This strong private support was another share in his success, I think, since he was not by many expected turning out to be the winner. And IMO he acknowledged this when after getting the news of being elected he ran home allegedly* shouting:"Mary, Mary, WE are elected!"

Hasn't the proverb "Behind every great man there's a great woman" often proven to contain a grain of truth? Even if it's just the private and emotional support she provided?

*I would love to know who reported this quote first(-hand). It's in Jean Baker's M.L.-biography, and she refers to p.46 in W. Steven's "A reporter's Lincoln", but I can't find it on that page nor anywhere else in that book. Does anyone know?

(12-13-2013 07:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Need to disagree with this point. Mary was getting older (for the time). Lincoln was a rising man, Whig floor leader and soon Congressman. She did not pick a dud. Heck, he even became President.
One other point. The Todd sisters moved to Springfield to marry. Elizabeth who was considered the most attractive, she was the oldest sister who married an Edwards one of the first families of the state. Francis married a doctor, and Ann (who Mary hated, but looked like her physically) married a merchant.

It bears out saying that Mary made the best choice. Both Elizabeth's and Francis's husbands hit Lincoln up for jobs when he was President because they needed the money. Ironically, the one I think that helped Lincoln the most was Ann's husband who Lincoln wrote his First Inaugeral Address in his office.
Was this foreseeable at the time Mary married him? Or even after his single term in Congress when he mainly practised law for a long time?
The point of the argument above was what Mary gave up at the time she decided for marrying A. Lincoln. Could she have expected he could ever offer her the standard of life she had been used to? And if - when? There were much more prosperous candidates, like Stephen Douglass, who courted Mary.
Mary might have believed in A. Lincolns qualities and future, but she got at that time not much support for her decision from her family, just the opposite.

Yes, very, very much later, they came and begged.

You are right, I should have said opinion not unhistorical. I do answer many your points including the idea that she spurred his ambition (It was already there). in the "Mary Lincoln Enigma." co-edited by me and Frank Williams. Remember Mary at the time in one of her letters belittle "female politicians." Also, the "Mary we are elected." is much more likely to simply mean the family or just a throwaway line. It is too little a reed to put that much interpretative significance. Again, I ask for real hard evidence where she helped make him President. It is simply not there.

As far as the line behind about a great man having a great woman behind them, it is not a universal truth.

I can say it is beyond doubt true with Bill Clinton, FDR, and John Adams.
But is it true with Pope Francis or Albert Einstein who divorced his wife and then married his cousin because she wouldn't interfere with his work.

The same can be said opposite way.
The heroic Clara Barton who did so much and tremendous good, was never married and did what she did without a spouse.

(12-14-2013 09:37 AM)Gene C Wrote: Mike, you make some interesting and good points, but...I think Eva makes some excellent points regarding the influence and importance Mary had in Abraham's political life.

Perhaps Mary was angry enough to throw something at Abraham, but didn't really want it to hit him or cause an injury?

Gene, the difference in physical streangth between them would generally preclude that. However, he was hurt enough that he had go out and buy bandages from the blood. The question of Lincoln being hurt is somewhat besides the point. Was he hurt when she dumped a bucket of water on him from the second floor and locked him out of the house for being at a political meeting too late? No. But is that a reasonable thing to do. Could you see yourself doing this to your wife if you are married, if she was late? I am sure not.

I am not getting into the chasing with a knife incident because that is too controversial, right now.

(12-14-2013 09:05 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(12-13-2013 07:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Strongly disagree on this point.
Lincoln became President because of georgraphy, availability, the failure of the Seward team, his awesome political skills and judgement, the contacts he made on the circut that ran his campaign. To say that Mary "made" Lincoln President is really unhistorical. It is hard to point to any evidence this is true."
It was a contemporate who said this. Can a statement by a contemporate be considered unhistorical? It is what Albert S. Edwards surely told from his very personal point of view, but still witnessed as a contemporate. Also, the statement wasn't "Mary made Lincoln President" but "she had more to do with making Mr. Lincoln President than many people think". This is absolutely not identical! I agree on all the factors you listed having their share in A. Lincoln's election. But Mary also backed him and wasn't passive, I think she pushed him additionally (especially emotionally) to his personal striving. This strong private support was another share in his success, I think, since he was not by many expected turning out to be the winner. And IMO he acknowledged this when after getting the news of being elected he ran home allegedly* shouting:"Mary, Mary, WE are elected!"

Hasn't the proverb "Behind every great man there's a great woman" often proven to contain a grain of truth? Even if it's just the private and emotional support she provided?

*I would love to know who reported this quote first(-hand). It's in Jean Baker's M.L.-biography, and she refers to p.46 in W. Steven's "A reporter's Lincoln", but I can't find it on that page nor anywhere else in that book. Does anyone know?

(12-13-2013 07:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Need to disagree with this point. Mary was getting older (for the time). Lincoln was a rising man, Whig floor leader and soon Congressman. She did not pick a dud. Heck, he even became President.
One other point. The Todd sisters moved to Springfield to marry. Elizabeth who was considered the most attractive, she was the oldest sister who married an Edwards one of the first families of the state. Francis married a doctor, and Ann (who Mary hated, but looked like her physically) married a merchant.

It bears out saying that Mary made the best choice. Both Elizabeth's and Francis's husbands hit Lincoln up for jobs when he was President because they needed the money. Ironically, the one I think that helped Lincoln the most was Ann's husband who Lincoln wrote his First Inaugeral Address in his office.
Was this foreseeable at the time Mary married him? Or even after his single term in Congress when he mainly practised law for a long time?
The point of the argument above was what Mary gave up at the time she decided for marrying A. Lincoln. Could she have expected he could ever offer her the standard of life she had been used to? And if - when? There were much more prosperous candidates, like Stephen Douglass, who courted Mary.
Mary might have believed in A. Lincolns qualities and future, but she got at that time not much support for her decision from her family, just the opposite.

Yes, very, very much later, they came and begged.

Mary hurt Lincoln's career than in the short-term because by marrying her, he lost an almost certain Whig nomination to Congress in 1844, because he was now the "candidate of wealth, pride, and aristorcratic institution."

The standard of life line needs to be examined. Lots of people marry up or down as it were. By the time she married Lincoln, her options were to get married or become a "Spinster" with the Edwards. She couldn't go back to KY, because she hated her stepmother. So her options were somewhat limited. That is not due to her, that is due to the lack of opportunity given to 19th century women.
Plus, there is a internal contradiction in all this. If Mary was smart enough as the writing goes that she recognized his potential, how can we then say it wasn't clear at the time he would be successful?