My Great Awakening

[John Fazio]

(01-04-2019 09:34 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:  First, Steve, I'm glad I wasn't drinking something when I read your post. Otherwise, my screen would have been soaked.

Given that Lincoln struggled with his religious beliefs (even up to the day he died, I believe) this kind of discussion is certainly apropos to the site, although I agree with Gene that such a topic is far too complex to be properly handled here other than in a cursory manner. Everyone comes to their point of view on just about any topic through a journey rather than a blinding light in the sky moment. Growing up I attended a fundamentalist church. Yet I could never get my questions answered. "You just have to accept it on faith," was the reply. Sorry, but if I had the faith in the first place, I wouldn't have the questions.

John, I stopped trying to figure out how the universe began a while back. While certainly a legitimate intellectual exercise, I question how knowing what started things would change the way I live my life. Even if it could be proven that a higher power put things into motion, I'm not sure what it would tell me that I don't already know. I don't know how my surgeon performed my quadruple bypass. I could learn if I chose to, but given that I'm still vertical I accept that what he did he did correctly. Knowing the procedure doesn't change the outcome.

What I can't understand is touched on by Gene. I don't accept that just because I can't understand God's reasons for allowing suffering in the world, that somehow it means I have to accept it. If God is all-knowing even to the point of taking care of the sparrow, he knows what I will face in my lifetime, up to the end. Yet, if he won't, or can't, make it so I don't have to suffer, but chooses to heal some other person with the same condition, then either he isn't all-powerful or is cruel. Either way, he's not someone I would chose to follow.

The other issue I have is in eternal punishment. No matter how evil someone is, at some point their evil will cease. Yet, for a determinate crime, someone faces indeterminate punishment. How is that fair? Christians are fond of saying that people have free will. Yet, if God gave me that free will, and I exercise it and decide that he doesn't exist, I'm condemned to an eternity of punishment for denying he exists. Again, how is that fair?

Finally, people often ask me "what if you're wrong?" Richard Dawkins, who can be too caustic for my tastes, had a good response. Most people are born into a particular faith. If you're born in America, you will likely be some type of Christian. If you're born in India, you'll likely be a Hindu, and so on. I turn the question around as ask "what if you're wrong?" Their usual reply is that they've lost nothing by believing (Pascal's wager). I then respond, "only if I'm right."

Best
Rob

Rob:

Well said.

I suppose I would say that if it could be shown that a god really exists and that he created the universe and life on earth and that he is most accurately represented by this or that faith (all the others being in error), I would then adopt that faith and begin to honor its precepts and not violate them as I do, as does just about everyone else, every day. There is nothing as pervasive in human history as religious hypocrisy. It is certainly no deterrent to war, killing, etc. Indeed, it is war's second casualty, after truth.

As for suffering and eternal damnation, your comments are well taken. I wonder why God bothered creating 225,000 Indonesians if he was going to allow them to be wiped out by the 2004 tsunami. A rabbi once told me that the holocaust was God's punishment of the Jews for not obeying the Torah. I said that I thought it was Hitler who killed 6 million Jews. He said "God used him". A stretch, I would say.

John