Thomas F. Harney

[John Fazio]

(08-07-2015 09:33 AM)Rick Smith Wrote:  

(08-07-2015 08:23 AM)Rosieo Wrote:  

(08-06-2015 11:49 PM)J. Beckert Wrote:  These comments can be moved to the "other" category, but I'd first like to say I agree with Rick completely. Not one life of the 700,000 sacrificed was worth one slave life. This entire conflict could have, and should have, been avoided without this horrible, bloody war. Whether you want to believe it or not, some of that lays on Lincoln's hands. Slavery, which elicists the most whiney, white guilt ridden responses more than any other on this forum, was dying a slow death by the 1850's. While many here demonize Gen. Lee, he did say it was a great moral evil - yet he fought for his homeland. Were his intentions just to continue to fight for what he deemed a moral evil? That doesn't matter here - he was Southern and due to the recent political climate, which the lemmings adore, he's labeled a racist. Nevermind he freed his own slaves and educated them before Lincoln's decree - he's just a Stars & Bars waving racist. Let's eliminate all reference to a noble man (and a flag) who insisted his own slaves be educated before he set them free, because the media tells you how to think. Lee's plan was light years ahead of Lincoln's.

Did I see someone ask Rick if he was a "flagger"? If someone on his forum, six months ago, had the Stars & Bars for an avitar, it wouldn't have raised too many hackles. Many of the members here had relatives, who'd never owned a slave, that fought for the South. But throw a little misguided attention to a flag that flew over slavery for 4 years, while the Stars & Stripes flew over it for 88, and you get the expected results from the terrified masses.

No one here thinks slavery was a good thing - you can take that to the bank. But those who insist on rehashing the wrongs of the past to make themselves feel better are perpetuating racism more than they know.

Harney deserves a new thread… “Harney Redux” … There is too much extra stuff to wade through on this one. JMO.

Since way-off topic is happening and responding here also to Rick:
** Re: Not one life of the 700,000 sacrificed was worth one slave life. ----- This sounds really bad. It sounds like one black life did not matter while soldier lives did matter. Murky territory here. Does not sound like what I believe was meant: slavery was evil.

** Colonies and early U.S. were wrong, wrong, wrong to permit slavery. “Wrong” is not even a strong enough word for what they were. Meantime, those fighting the Civil War under the U.S. flag wanted to limit slavery and generally hoped it would die out – yes, for economic not usually humanitarian reasons. No matter. Comparing Civil War flags and slavery is apples and oranges.

** Slavery would have continued well into the 20th century – source Ed Ayers, U Richmond, emeritus. (He is not the only historian saying this these days.)

** I brought up flagging. It most certainly was not my intention to offend. If I did so, please accept my apology. It happens that I read a scholar’s blog that passionately covers, among other issues, historical inaccuracies of some heritage groups that focus their mission around the battle flag. Personally and minus passion, I do not think any Confederate flag should wave on U.S. government property – bad form. Do not care wherever else it is – free speech being a good if difficult policy. However, not always for better and not always for worse, times change, and in this day and age displaying a Confederate flag raises questions about the racial beliefs of those who fly it.
It is what it is.

** Lincoln did not want war. Neither did Davis. Davis was not tricked into firing the first shot. Davis was a big boy, not to mention an experienced statesman and politician. One has the power; one is responsible for how it is used. I think Lincoln said something about having a solemn oath to preserve, protect, and defend.
* Slavery would have remained in place if secession did not occur. Source: U.S. Constitution. Rich guys gambled and lost.
* Confederate soldiers who did not have slaves fought for their society. Historians like Gary Gallagher, U Virginia, say Civil War era Americans wanted to preserve the racial pecking order. Especially lower-class citizens in both North and South did not want black people raised up (consider draft riots in the north).
* Historian Mark Grimsley, Ohio State, said in one of his video talks that his ancestors are from the South and he would have been a Confederate soldier if he lived back then because he lacked modern-day perspective.

Rosieo,

My meaning was simply that slavery was not a cause worth fighting and dying for. No one said that black lives did not matter. I said that I agree with General Lee when he said that slavery was a great moral evil, but I cannot take responsibility for slavery so I cannot apologize for it as some, such as John Fazio, seem to desire Southerners to do. I also responded earlier that your question regarding the flag did not offend me; be assured that it did not.

The problem seems to be that there is too much modern perspective in looking back over our nation's history. It cannot be understood if it is looked at through a 21st century prism. We can learn from history, but cannot expect historic persons to behave the way 21st century culture seems to demand that they do.

Rick

Rick:

You misread me. I do not desire Southerners, nor anyone else, to apologize for anything. I merely suggest that in discussions of the causes of the war, in forums such as this, or elsewhere, it should be acknowledged by everyone, irrespective of their region or ancestry, that slavery was the root cause of the war and that talk of states' rights, tariffs, cultural differences, etc., serves only to cloud the issue. The political, social, economic and cultural dimensions are all tied to the institution of slavery, without which there would have been no war, because nothing else was worth fighting about. The causes given by South Carolina and other states for seceding make this perfectly clear.

John