RE: Was there an assassin on Grant's train?
(07-21-2015 02:41 PM)L Verge Wrote: (07-21-2015 11:05 AM)Rosieo Wrote: (07-20-2015 06:24 PM)L Verge Wrote: (07-20-2015 01:45 PM)Rosieo Wrote:
I read this thread when I joined up a few days back and saw it stopped when discussion got heated. I considered whether to post here, to reopen the thread, for that reason but figured I might give it a try.I would feel bad if the thread stopped again and I would regret reopening it.
I dont like to see people get upset. That is, Ms. L. seems upset.... Something here about these Marylanders is really personal to her, I am starting to think. She cares about them.
John is taking a clobbering, so to speak, due to lack of supporters but pushes on. As a journalist who covered lots of court stuff I understand John's style. He is tenacious. Well, so what? Our society needs lawyers. Lawyers are known to accomplish good stuff. Let him argue his points. He gives food for thought.
The topic is really interesting. I have some of my own research underway on it. With luck, I'll have something.
Rosemary,
It's time we got acquainted. Please call me Laurie. I had prepared an in-depth reply as a way of introduction, but when I hit post, it flew into outer space never to be retrieved again. And, I can assure you that it was not a nasty response to your concern about me being upset. Here's a much briefer explanation as to why I am so darn persnickety about the Lincoln assassination story.
I have been addicted to it since I was about ten years old and was helping my mother clean out the attic of our home (ca. 1840) that my great-grandparents had moved into in 1862, and the family never moved out. In an old wicker basket, my mother pulled out an old nightshirt and told me the story of David Herold leaving it behind on the morning of April 14, 1865, after spending the night with the Huntts on the 13th. From that point on, the Lincoln assassination story took over my life.
I graduated with honors in the fields of history and education and went on to teach history and government for nearly a decade. I left to marry a vice principal and to raise my own child instead of raising other people's.
In 1975, a good friend, Joan Chaconas (also a Lincoln and assassination scholar) asked me to join her in becoming a volunteer guide at the Surratt House Museum, which had just been restored and would be opening to the public on May 1, 1976. We joined about twenty others and began training. We quickly realized that few of the others - as well as the trainer -- knew very little about the history that had caused the house to be saved and restored.
After weeks of listening to lectures about 19th-century antiques, I raised my hand one day and asked when we were going to get to the history. You could have heard a pin drop. I then gave a synopsis of that history. At the next session, the trainer challenged me to give a tour like I thought it should be developed. There were no furnishings at that time, so I had to wing it. Ten years of teaching, however, had cured me of being afraid when I knew that I was well-acquainted with a subject.
All through the tour, the trainer was taking notes. At the end, we found out that she was taking notes about the history of the house because she did not know much assassination history. Her goal was to have the museum be literally an antiques' showcase for the 19th century. From that point on, the county historian stood behind Joan and me, and a structured, well-researched tour program was developed (with much help from the dean of assassination studies James O. Hall)
I spent eight years as a volunteer docent before accepting the part-time position of site manager in 1983. In 1985, I became the first full-time museum director; and Joan was made my assistant in 1988. From that point on, we have worked our tail feathers off developing our programs, adding a restored kitchen wing to the historic house, acquiring additional acreage and creating a much-needed visitors' center and the highly respected James O. Hall Research Center.
Over the years, I have been privileged to work with students (grade six through PhDs), researchers, authors, media, TV films, magazine articles, and the producers and director of The Conspirator movie, which premiered in 2010. I have rubbed elbows with the greats in the assassination field: Bill Tidwell, James O. Hall, Dave Gaddy, Bill Hanchett, Terry Alford, Mike Kauffman, Ed Steers, Betty Ownsbey, Bill Richter, Rick Smith, Elizabeth Leonard, Kate Clifford Larson, Bettie Trindal, Tom Bogar, Caleb Stephens, Rich Smyth and Jim Garrett, Nora Titone, John Elliott, Barry Cauchon, AND John Fazio. I know I'm name-dropping, and I apologize if I have left anyone out.
As for John, I have known him for 4-5 years and appreciate the years of research and hard work that has gone into Decapitating the Union. Just because I don't agree with his style of presenting his thoughts doesn't negate what I think he has done -- I agree with a good portion of his conclusions. He asked me to write the foreword for his book, but I refuse any such offers and usually refuse to do reviews of other people's work also. We can fight like husband and wife and still respect each other. So many of us on this forum are the same way.
What does upset me are those who profess to be historians and then manage to screw everything up or not consider all sides of the story. Personally, I think there are too many in the field (from authors through media on down) who spout ideas without knowledge to back them up. The attitude and wrong information of many today are doing a great disservice to our nation's heritage. My grandmother had a sixth grade education and could talk circles around some of the so-called historians today.
As for my allegiance to my home state of Maryland: As most people know, Maryland was one of four border states during the Civil War. In my opinion, Maryland and one other - Missouri - bore more of the brunt of war than some of the Confederate and most of the Union states. I won't bore others, but please take the time to read about the State of Maryland during the Civil War. You might begin to understand why I want my native state's history told correctly.
I have now lost about 80% of our posters, I bet, but I hope this gives you a good idea of where I'm coming from. Please don't be afraid to express your opinions on this forum. Good, solid opinions, citations, questions, and comments are what keep us going.
And be assured that John Fazio and I are friends (I think I jut heard John drop to the floor in a faint!), and I invited him to be a speaker at the 2016 Surratt conference in April. When he or anyone gets me mad enough to really retaliate, I will do it in private conversation with that person.
I cringe at the modern term for the President that the press in most mediums seem to have adopted -- POTUS. The other day, I saw the Supreme Court reduced to SCOTUS (now that's getting into dangerous territory in my opinion). I even get mad that the title of President is no longer capitalized unless followed by the man's name.
Maybe we need Aretha Franklin to give a lesson in RESPECT. Of course, maybe it's a question of earning it...
(07-20-2015 06:24 PM)L Verge Wrote: (07-20-2015 01:45 PM)Rosieo Wrote:
I read this thread when I joined up a few days back and saw it stopped when discussion got heated. I considered whether to post here, to reopen the thread, for that reason but figured I might give it a try.I would feel bad if the thread stopped again and I would regret reopening it.
I dont like to see people get upset. That is, Ms. L. seems upset.... Something here about these Marylanders is really personal to her, I am starting to think. She cares about them.
John is taking a clobbering, so to speak, due to lack of supporters but pushes on. As a journalist who covered lots of court stuff I understand John's style. He is tenacious. Well, so what? Our society needs lawyers. Lawyers are known to accomplish good stuff. Let him argue his points. He gives food for thought.
The topic is really interesting. I have some of my own research underway on it. With luck, I'll have something.
Rosemary,
It's time we got acquainted. Please call me Laurie. I had prepared an in-depth reply as a way of introduction, but when I hit post, it flew into outer space never to be retrieved again. And, I can assure you that it was not a nasty response to your concern about me being upset. Here's a much briefer explanation as to why I am so darn persnickety about the Lincoln assassination story.
I have been addicted to it since I was about ten years old and was helping my mother clean out the attic of our home (ca. 1840) that my great-grandparents had moved into in 1862, and the family never moved out. In an old wicker basket, my mother pulled out an old nightshirt and told me the story of David Herold leaving it behind on the morning of April 14, 1865, after spending the night with the Huntts on the 13th. From that point on, the Lincoln assassination story took over my life.
I graduated with honors in the fields of history and education and went on to teach history and government for nearly a decade. I left to marry a vice principal and to raise my own child instead of raising other people's.
In 1975, a good friend, Joan Chaconas (also a Lincoln and assassination scholar) asked me to join her in becoming a volunteer guide at the Surratt House Museum, which had just been restored and would be opening to the public on May 1, 1976. We joined about twenty others and began training. We quickly realized that few of the others - as well as the trainer -- knew very little about the history that had caused the house to be saved and restored.
After weeks of listening to lectures about 19th-century antiques, I raised my hand one day and asked when we were going to get to the history. You could have heard a pin drop. I then gave a synopsis of that history. At the next session, the trainer challenged me to give a tour like I thought it should be developed. There were no furnishings at that time, so I had to wing it. Ten years of teaching, however, had cured me of being afraid when I knew that I was well-acquainted with a subject.
All through the tour, the trainer was taking notes. At the end, we found out that she was taking notes about the history of the house because she did not know much assassination history. Her goal was to have the museum be literally an antiques' showcase for the 19th century. From that point on, the county historian stood behind Joan and me, and a structured, well-researched tour program was developed (with much help from the dean of assassination studies James O. Hall)
I spent eight years as a volunteer docent before accepting the part-time position of site manager in 1983. In 1985, I became the first full-time museum director; and Joan was made my assistant in 1988. From that point on, we have worked our tail feathers off developing our programs, adding a restored kitchen wing to the historic house, acquiring additional acreage and creating a much-needed visitors' center and the highly respected James O. Hall Research Center.
Over the years, I have been privileged to work with students (grade six through PhDs), researchers, authors, media, TV films, magazine articles, and the producers and director of The Conspirator movie, which premiered in 2010. I have rubbed elbows with the greats in the assassination field: Bill Tidwell, James O. Hall, Dave Gaddy, Bill Hanchett, Terry Alford, Mike Kauffman, Ed Steers, Betty Ownsbey, Bill Richter, Rick Smith, Elizabeth Leonard, Kate Clifford Larson, Bettie Trindal, Tom Bogar, Caleb Stephens, Rich Smyth and Jim Garrett, Nora Titone, John Elliott, Barry Cauchon, AND John Fazio. I know I'm name-dropping, and I apologize if I have left anyone out.
As for John, I have known him for 4-5 years and appreciate the years of research and hard work that has gone into Decapitating the Union. Just because I don't agree with his style of presenting his thoughts doesn't negate what I think he has done -- I agree with a good portion of his conclusions. He asked me to write the foreword for his book, but I refuse any such offers and usually refuse to do reviews of other people's work also. We can fight like husband and wife and still respect each other. So many of us on this forum are the same way.
What does upset me are those who profess to be historians and then manage to screw everything up or not consider all sides of the story. Personally, I think there are too many in the field (from authors through media on down) who spout ideas without knowledge to back them up. The attitude and wrong information of many today are doing a great disservice to our nation's heritage. My grandmother had a sixth grade education and could talk circles around some of the so-called historians today.
As for my allegiance to my home state of Maryland: As most people know, Maryland was one of four border states during the Civil War. In my opinion, Maryland and one other - Missouri - bore more of the brunt of war than some of the Confederate and most of the Union states. I won't bore others, but please take the time to read about the State of Maryland during the Civil War. You might begin to understand why I want my native state's history told correctly.
I have now lost about 80% of our posters, I bet, but I hope this gives you a good idea of where I'm coming from. Please don't be afraid to express your opinions on this forum. Good, solid opinions, citations, questions, and comments are what keep us going.
And be assured that John Fazio and I are friends (I think I jut heard John drop to the floor in a faint!), and I invited him to be a speaker at the 2016 Surratt conference in April. When he or anyone gets me mad enough to really retaliate, I will do it in private conversation with that person.
I cringe at the modern term for the President that the press in most mediums seem to have adopted -- POTUS. The other day, I saw the Supreme Court reduced to SCOTUS (now that's getting into dangerous territory in my opinion). I even get mad that the title of President is no longer capitalized unless followed by the man's name.
Maybe we need Aretha Franklin to give a lesson in RESPECT. Of course, maybe it's a question of earning it...
As for the term "boy," I believe it might have several connotations at the time of the Civil War: Children as young as 10-12 could often earn some money by offering to run messages for people, but I don't know if the First Lady (though I believe her generous, especially to children) would have used them. The term - even as I was growing up - denoted someone of inferior class. And #3, it did refer to a man of color no matter his age.
Laurie, I am glad the Union won. I am against the death penalty, but Herold, Booth, and the rest, they were criminals. They chose to take big chances. They ought not be romanticized.
Who in the hell said anything about romanticizing the conspirators? I resent the fact that you are trying to put me in the category of some old Southern lady who still believes in moonlight and magnolias!
It might interest you to know that I have letters (primary source - originals) from my great-grandfather Huntt to his fiancee written from Baltimore in April of 1861, describing the Baltimore Riots. He ends with a sentence that basically says that he will love her forever -- unless he finds out she is a secessionist! I also have ancestors who fought on both sides.
We're not analyzing a Civil War romance novel here. We are trying to understand our country's history from all angles.
Laurie:
I would love to see those letters. Can you make copies available to me? I will be happy to pay all copying and shipping costs. Thanks.
John
(07-21-2015 01:10 PM)BettyO Wrote: Quote:I am against the death penalty, but Herold, Booth, and the rest, they were criminals. They chose to take big chances. They ought not be romanticized.
No one is romanticizing anyone that I know of. We, as scholars, (and yes, there is that word again!) simply like to investigate, study and analyze these folk. I wouldn't call them criminals; political zealots, perhaps. The fact that they were southern, with southern beliefs did not make them criminal. They simply saw "their" country attacked and disagreed with the political stance of the day. Victorian Americans were totally different from today's mindset - and today's mindset doesn't belong in Victorian heads.
Betty:
I realize "criminals" is a strong word, but they were involved in a conspiracy to harm Federal officeholders, by kidnapping them (as some believed) or murdering them (as others believed). They were therefore violating the laws of the country and of the states in which they lived (conspiracy; attemted kidnapping; attempted murder), which violations, in some circumstances, were capital offenses. What else, then, can we call them? Isn't someone who violates criminal laws a criminal?
John
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Was there an assassin on Grant's train?
