Lincoln & Herndon

[Eva Elisabeth]

Herndon IMO contradicted himself - on one hand he was convinced that he could read Lincoln's mind, on the other hand he called Lincoln “The most shut-mouthed man I ever knew”. Also "being convinced to be able to" doesn't necessarily mean being right. I think in many matters he read Lincoln's mind from his own (Herndon's) point of view, e.g. all the "evils" in his marriage, which might have been a no-go for Herndon, but not for Lincoln or others. People are different. I, too, think he wanted to make Lincoln more an infidel than he might have been.

I think there were two different kinds of "dislikes/splits" between Mary and Herndon: a general one that began with him comparing her dancing to a serpent, and rooting in too different personalities and views on all matters of life, and a second one after the Rutledge lectures where he "stole" Mary her husband's love. As you can see in her letter above despite all that had been in the past she responded to him most politely and without any resentments, and gave him the interview. Also since Mary has often been criticized so harshly I think it's worth posting some of the outcome of Mary's interview with Herndon (from Wilson, Douglas L., ed.; Davis, Rodney O., ed.: "Herndon's Informants..."):

254. Mary Todd Lincoln (William H. Herndon Interview)
[September 1866]

Mrs Lincoln's Conversation in substance with me at the St Nicholas Hotel — She Said — [...]
My husband intended when he was through with his Presidential terms to take me and family to Europe — didn't in late years dream of death — was cheery — funny — in high Spirits. He intended to return & go to California over the Rocky Mountains and see the prospects of the soldiers &c. &c digging [out] gold to pay the National debt. He and Sumner were like boys during his last days — They were down on the River after Richmond was taken: they acted like boys — were so glad the war was over. Mr Lincoln up to 1865 wanted to live in Springfield and be buried there — Changed his notion where to live — never settled on any place particularly — intended moving & travelling some

Mr Lincoln was the Kindest Man — Most tender Man & loving husband & father in the world: he gave us all unbounded liberty — Said to me always when I asked him for anything — 'You Know what you want — go and get it': he [never] asked me if it was necessary: he was very — indulgent to his children — chided or prais[ed them] for it — their acts — : he always said 'It [is my] pleasure that my children are free — happy & unrestrained by parental tyranny. Love is the chain whereby to Lock a child to its parents'
[...]
Mr Lincoln had a dream when down the River at City point after Richmond was taken: he dreamed that the white House burned up — Sent me up the River — went — Met Stanton &c. Mr Lincoln told me to get a party and Come back. I did so.
[...]
Our expenses at the White House were about [two] thousand dollars per month — breakfasted at [9] o'clock am — lunched at 2 o'cl PM — dined [at] 6 o'cl PM. Mr Lincoln got up irregularly — Saw the people — attended to the Hospital &c.
[..]
Mr Linc[oln] had a Kind of Poetry in his Nature: he was [a terribly] firm man when he set his foot down — none of us — no man nor woman Could rule him after he had made up his mind. I told him about Sewards intention to rule him — : he said — 'I shall rule myself — shall obey my own Conscience and follow God in it.' Mr Lincoln had no hope & no faith in the usual acceptation of those words: he never joined a Church: he was a religious man always, as I think: he first thought — to say think — about this subject was when Willie died — never before. he felt religious More than Ever about the time he went to Gettysburg: he was not a technical Christian: he read the bible a good deal about 1864
[...]
I often said that [God] would not let any harm Come to my husband. We had passed through 5 long years — terrible — bloody years unscathed that I thought so — so did Mr Lincoln: he was happy over that idea: he was cheerful — almost joyous as he got gradually to see the End of the war.

I used to read News paper c[harges — ] News paper attacks on him — He said ['Don't do] that for I have Enough to bear — yet I [care] nothing for them. If I am right I'll live & if wrong I'll die anyhow — so let them [pass by] unnoticed.'I would playfully say 'That's the way to learn — read both sides'

Mr [Lincoln's] maxim & philosophy were — 'What is to be [will be] and no Cares (prayers) of ours Can [arrest] the decree' I could tell when Mr Lincoln had decided anything: he was cheerful at first then he pressed or compressed his lips together — firmly When these things showed themselves to me I fashioned myself accordingly and so did all others have to do sooner or later, and the world found it out. When we first went to Washington Many thought that Mr Lincoln was weak, but he rose grandly with the Circumstances [and] Men soon learned that he was above [them all.] I never saw a man's mind develope so finely: his manners got quite polished. [He] used to say to me when I talked to him about Chase and those who did him Evil — 'Do good to those who hate you and turn their ill will to friendship' Sometimes in Washington [being] worn down he spoke crabbedly to men — [Harshly so — ] yet it seemed that the People underst[ood the] Conditions around him and forgave.'"
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As for the passage "Mr Lincoln had a dream when down the River at City point after Richmond was taken: he dreamed that the white House burned up" - if she witnessed "Lamon's Lincoln's dream", why didn't she mention it here, too?

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As for Robert, this is his correspondence with Herndon on the matter of his book (project), and sheds some light on his thoughts on Herndon:

Chicago Oct 1 /1866

My dear Mr Herndon

Yours of Sept 28 is received — I have not any letters which could be of any interest whatever to you or to anyone — You may remember that I did not leave home until my father became so busy in public affairs that it was next to impossible for him to write to me — Accordingly the few letters I have, ranging over a period of five years, are with one or two exceptions letters enclosing money — I was much too young for him to write to me on general matters — at least he never did so — I spoke to my Mother on the subject and she says she had a talk with you on the subject when at Springfield and that her letters are of too private a nature to go out of her hands.

You say also that my father used to write "short poems' — I never knew it before and if I came across any, I would willingly let you see them — I have never seen any thing of the kind —

Yours Sincerely
Robert T. Lincoln


Chicago Dec 13 /66

My dear Sir:

Your letter of Dec 10 is received and it contains just what I understood to be the result of our conversation at Springfield.

As I said then, I have never had any doubt of your good intentions but inasmuch as the construction put upon your language by everyone who has mentioned the subject to me was so entirely different from your own, I felt justified in asking you to change your expression. Beyond this, I do not wish, nor have I any right to go. Your opinion may not agree with mine but that is not my affair. All I ask is, that nothing may be published by you, which after careful consideration will seem apt to cause pain to my father's family, which I am sure you do not wish to do.

Very sincerely your friend
Robert T. Lincoln


Chicago Dec 24 1866

My dear Mr Herndon
...
I infer from your letter, but I hope it is not so, that it is your purpose to make some considerable mention of my mother in your work — I say I hope it is not so, because in the first place it would not be pleasant for her or for any woman, to be made public property of in that way — With a man it is very different, for he lives out in the world and is used to being talked of — One of the unpleasant consequences of political success is that however little it may have to do with that success, his whole private life is exposed to the public gaze — that is part of the price he pays. But I see no reason why his wife and children should be included — especially while they are alive — I think no sensible man would live in a glass house and I think he ought not to be compelled to do so against his will. I feel very keenly on this subject, for the annoyance I am subjected to sometimes is nearly intolerable I hope you will consider this matter carefully, My dear Mr Herndon, for once done there is no undoing —

Sincerely your friend
Robert T. Lincoln


Chicago Decr 27 /66

My dear Mr Herndon

Your letter of yesterday is at hand and I am very glad to find that I misunderstood your language and that you do understand my feelings on that subject. There is no need of saying anthing more about it.
...
Very sincerely yours
Robert T. Lincoln