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Pamela · (This post was last modified: 08-28-2015 03:10 PM by Pamela.)

I"ll study Lee when I want to walk around with a migraine. When he comes to mind, I think of the oath (sworn before God and country) he violated after graduating at the top or near the top of his class from West Point, and that had he applied his (apparently) military genius to the Union, as Lincoln asked him to, the war would have been much shorter, Lincoln wouldn't have been assassinated, these fools wouldn't have swung from the gallows or gone to the dry Tortugas, and maybe 300,000 lives or so would have been saved. And I'm not into the military campaigns and generals--I prefer bonnets to battles. I hope I never have to look at another painting of Lee the noble aristocratic general--what are there, hundreds of them?

And then there's that annoying quote of his-"It is well that war is so terrible lest we should grow too fond of it." To me, he was a man on a head trip, enjoying his power to be able to order men to their deaths and all the while being revered by those same men. Geesh. Lee also makes me think of his buddies in the slavocracy, lording over their slaves, creating mulatto children with their sex slaves and then acting like they didn't know where they came from. Aren't you sorry you brought that up, Laurie?

Please, God judge me not Southern enthusiasts.

I remember some of the information you posted about the Tribune when I first started reading Lincoln books. I find that interesting.

Jenny, I'm glad you're enjoying this thread. One of the many slurs cast his way is the notion that Weichmann provided prisoner information from his job, to the rebels. I believe that came from Augustus Howell, a notorious blockade runner, liar, and friend of the Surratts, and from conspirator Sam Arnold, who got it from assassin and liar Booth. How in the world would these operators been able to pass up a juicy plum like Weichmann's place of employment with the Dept of Prisoners? They couldn't--it was too perfect, Booth could impress Arnold, who was never going to meet and converse with Weichmann, so the story was safe. Howell tried to chip away at Weichmann the witness during the trial (and completely failed). Booth and the Surratts also stole the Father Menu letter and either Booth or Surratt commissioned the phony Clara letter to compromise Weichmann.

HerbS · 08-29-2015, 07:56 AM

Pamela,your opinions make sense to me! But,as a retired educator[35yrs],I feel that you have to see and consider both sides of the topic!

Wild Bill · 08-29-2015, 10:29 AM

Herb, as a former college prof I believe that you are correct about seeing both sides of a topic. That is my main criticism of many books published today. This does not mean one has to modify one's point of view, but one can use a footnote to show one has looked at and considered all points of view, and let the reader make up his/her own mind.

BettyO · 08-29-2015, 10:46 AM

Correct, Bill!

It's always best to weigh BOTH sides of an argument/thesis and come up with the best decision. One does that in order to be able to support one's argument -

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 08-29-2015 11:28 AM by L Verge.)

"Aren't you sorry you brought that up, Laurie?"

Not in the least. It confirmed something for me.

Moving on to Weichmann, I have wondered why he went from being a school teacher to an employee of the War Department in the Commissary General's office (that dealt with prisoners of war) at the time that Booth was coming on the scene in the Surratt household. I can make a logical leap on that answer, but I can't back up my theory until I find a smoking gun.

I have known the other material you have posted here about Louis for about thirty years - ever since the extensive research done by James O. Hall, Erich Ewald (who discovered his marriage), and John C. Brennan. However, the good fortune as to how he became a clerk in the War Department working with the prisoner records in 1864 has always intrigued me.

You also made strong statements about Augustus Howell. He is a man about whom very little is known, except that he was fairly low on the Secret Line and was used mainly as an escort through the lines. The only thing solid that we know is that he did a fine job of trying to confuse the court with his testimony -- funny, also. So far as I know, the only people who have made an effort in finding out about the "real" Augustus Howell are Rick Smith, Bill Richter, James O. Hall, and a few others who are experts on the Confederate underground in Southern Maryland.

Jim Page · 08-29-2015, 11:44 AM

(08-29-2015 10:29 AM)Wild Bill Wrote: Herb, as a former college prof I believe that you are correct about seeing both sides of a topic.

I can only speak for myself, but when I was younger, I was much more certain about the correctness of my own beliefs and the fallacies and motivations of others.

Now that I have a lot more mileage on me, I find it much easier to see both sides of a question and to doubt my convictions. I've been wrong way too many times to consider myself one who knows it all.

--Jim

Rick Smith · 08-29-2015, 01:07 PM

(08-29-2015 11:44 AM)Jim Page Wrote:
(08-29-2015 10:29 AM)Wild Bill Wrote: Herb, as a former college prof I believe that you are correct about seeing both sides of a topic.

I can only speak for myself, but when I was younger, I was much more certain about the correctness of my own beliefs and the fallacies and motivations of others.

Now that I have a lot more mileage on me, I find it much easier to see both sides of a question and to doubt my convictions. I've been wrong way too many times to consider myself one who knows it all.

--Jim

Jim,

Not only are you a gentleman; you are humble and wise.

Rick

Pamela · 08-29-2015, 01:45 PM

(08-29-2015 11:26 AM)L Verge Wrote: "Aren't you sorry you brought that up, Laurie?"

Not in the least. It confirmed something for me.

Moving on to Weichmann, I have wondered why he went from being a school teacher to an employee of the War Department in the Commissary General's office (that dealt with prisoners of war) at the time that Booth was coming on the scene in the Surratt household. I can make a logical leap on that answer, but I can't back up my theory until I find a smoking gun.

I have known the other material you have posted here about Louis for about thirty years - ever since the extensive research done by James O. Hall, Erich Ewald (who discovered his marriage), and John C. Brennan. However, the good fortune as to how he became a clerk in the War Department working with the prisoner records in 1864 has always intrigued me.

You also made strong statements about Augustus Howell. He is a man about whom very little is known, except that he was fairly low on the Secret Line and was used mainly as an escort through the lines. The only thing solid that we know is that he did a fine job of trying to confuse the court with his testimony -- funny, also. So far as I know, the only people who have made an effort in finding out about the "real" Augustus Howell are Rick Smith, Bill Richter, James O. Hall, and a few others who are experts on the Confederate underground in Southern Maryland.

The information about Weichmann's acquiring his position with the War Dept. is in his book, p25-26:
"A Mr. Grugan, who boarded in the same house with me, informed me of a vacant clerkship in the office in which he was employed, the commissary General of Prisoners, a Bureau of the war dept. I immediately made application for the same, accompanying my letter with the following testimonials:

'Washington, June 29, 1863

Mr. L.J. Weichmann having been a teacher at st. Mathews Institute of this city for the past six months, I take pleasure in stating that he gave general satisfaction in that capacity.

Chas. I White, D.D.
Pastor of Saint Mathew's Church'

'Head Quarters Military District of Washington
Washington D.C., January 8th, 1864

Col. Wm. Hoffman
Commissary General of Prisoners,

Colonel:

Although my acquaintance with Mr. Louis J. Weichmann commenced but a few weeks since, it has given me a most favorable impression of him and I cordially bear testimony to his high tone of character and personal worth. I consider him eminently qualified for the position he seeks in your office and entitled to your warmest confidence.

Respectfully,
Your obedient servant,
E.Beatty,
Capt.& A.A.G.'"

He began employment shortly thereafter, in early January 1864, long before Booth made his unfortunate appearance on the scene.

I also have confirmation.

You never mentioned you were aware of my research when I posted it. If you have info I would love to see it. The file from the Lincoln Financial Collection linked by Gene in post#1 in this thread makes interesting reading. There is an article written by Ewald for the Courier included. Is that what you are referring to and is that the only information Ewald shared about Weichmann? That article contains biased, gossipy, unevenly and poorly researched information, for the most part.

Jenny, if you are interested, make sure you read the report by Pastor Conroy with his rather unique description of Weichmann's testimony in trial as speaking with "...the open flaming mouth of a hyena." What a hoot!

Jenny · 08-29-2015, 05:15 PM

Yes, I read about Conroy and his bashing of Weichmann earlier in this thread.

L Verge · 08-29-2015, 07:31 PM

Pamela, please do not be condescending to me. I am probably old enough to be your mother, and I suspect that I have many more years of reading, valuable friendships, and contacts in the field. As for Weichmann's contributions to Booth's plans, I told you that I have yet to find the smoking gun.

However, please remember that he left college in the summer of 1862 and did not return (same as John Surratt) despite his mother's strong desire for him to be a priest. We know that he maintained his friendships with Surratt and family for the entire time. Remember the reference to him being at Surrattsville in 1863 and meeting Herold at that time? His note about coming with Surratt to the farm to get apples to sell on the market?

If you read other books, you will see that the kidnap/release prisoners plans had many forms under quite a few others before Booth and 1864. Surratt is an active courier on the Secret Line by 1863. He might not know details of or those involved in earlier schemes, but I suspect that he knew the general topic. My own family said that half of Southern Maryland knew about a kidnap scheme, and they were right in the middle of Southern Maryland! Weichmann's position in the War Department made him ripe for picking - whether knowingly or unknowingly. As Mike Kauffman is prone to say (on a variety of topics), "Coincidence? I think not!"

I'm sorry that you never had the opportunity to meet the fine researchers in this field. You would then understand the lengths that they went to (and others continue to do) to consider all angles. I knew Erich Ewald, and the giants in the field were very impressed with his research -- and these were people who were not prejudicial for or against the subjects of their investigations. They didn't run on personal opinions and biases - if they developed an opinion, they set out to prove or disprove it and were honest in their findings. At Surratt House, we are fortunate to have rooms filled with file cabinets and boxes of research papers donated to us by dozens of qualified people in the field.

Thanks to their mentorings, I have tried to be objective also. I don't love or hate Louis Weichmann and have no personal attachment to him. His book sits on a shelf by my desk along with The Evidence, American Brutus and Come Retribution. I think he plays a very unique (and possibly indefineable) role in the conspiracy. Until I can document my feelings, I won't be writing a book on him.

tom82baur · (This post was last modified: 08-29-2015 09:29 PM by tom82baur.)

My interest in Lincoln, the assassination, and the Civil War was rekindled by the purely serendipitous discovery of Louis Weichmann's book at a local tag sale back in the mid 1980s. I read it immediately, and I was just stunned by it. Shortly thereafter, Ken Burn's Civil War masterpiece appeared on PBS, and I was hooked!

This is my first post here, although I have been a lurker for some 6 months, and I wish to pay due respect to all the contributors! I am the administrator for our local Civil War Roundtable Facebook page, and I have made numerous links to this forum, mainly in regard to the Assassination thread, since that has been so much in the news these past few months.

I continue to be fascinated with Weichmann's role, and, while I confess to being generally sympathetic to him, I think that the jury is still out. My overall impression of his book is that.... to paraphrase The Bard: "Methinks he doth protesteth too much."

But I don't think that we have discovered the whole truth of the matter yet. I find it distressing to see the discussion start to move away from a strict discussion of the facts that have emerged so far, to something that diminishes that. It is my fervent wish that we can step back, take a deep breath, and get back to doing what this forum does so... excellently: post the facts, as best they can be determined! And let the chips fall where they may.

I heartily applaud the forum contributors on all sides, and I cannot express the depth of my appreciation for what I have learned, thanks to you ALL, over the past few months. Please keep up the good work. Kudos!

RJNorton · 08-30-2015, 05:19 AM

Welcome to the forum, Tom! Back in the 1970's my wife gave me Weichmann's book for my birthday. I still remember that day. At the time all I had were The Day Lincoln Was Shot, Twenty Days, and The Web of Conspiracy. I remember how happy I was to have a 4th book. Since then I've lost count!

Thank you for linking to the forum. I shall add a link back:

https://www.facebook.com/shorelinecivilwarroundtable

DanielC · 08-30-2015, 08:09 AM

(08-29-2015 11:44 AM)Jim Page Wrote:
(08-29-2015 10:29 AM)Wild Bill Wrote: Herb, as a former college prof I believe that you are correct about seeing both sides of a topic.

I can only speak for myself, but when I was younger, I was much more certain about the correctness of my own beliefs and the fallacies and motivations of others.

Now that I have a lot more mileage on me, I find it much easier to see both sides of a question and to doubt my convictions. I've been wrong way too many times to consider myself one who knows it all.

--Jim

Spot on Jim.

Pamela · 08-30-2015, 08:33 AM

(08-29-2015 07:31 PM)L Verge Wrote: Pamela, please do not be condescending to me. I am probably old enough to be your mother, and I suspect that I have many more years of reading, valuable friendships, and contacts in the field. As for Weichmann's contributions to Booth's plans, I told you that I have yet to find the smoking gun.

However, please remember that he left college in the summer of 1862 and did not return (same as John Surratt) despite his mother's strong desire for him to be a priest. We know that he maintained his friendships with Surratt and family for the entire time. Remember the reference to him being at Surrattsville in 1863 and meeting Herold at that time? His note about coming with Surratt to the farm to get apples to sell on the market?

If you read other books, you will see that the kidnap/release prisoners plans had many forms under quite a few others before Booth and 1864. Surratt is an active courier on the Secret Line by 1863. He might not know details of or those involved in earlier schemes, but I suspect that he knew the general topic. My own family said that half of Southern Maryland knew about a kidnap scheme, and they were right in the middle of Southern Maryland! Weichmann's position in the War Department made him ripe for picking - whether knowingly or unknowingly. As Mike Kauffman is prone to say (on a variety of topics), "Coincidence? I think not!"

I'm sorry that you never had the opportunity to meet the fine researchers in this field. You would then understand the lengths that they went to (and others continue to do) to consider all angles. I knew Erich Ewald, and the giants in the field were very impressed with his research -- and these were people who were not prejudicial for or against the subjects of their investigations. They didn't run on personal opinions and biases - if they developed an opinion, they set out to prove or disprove it and were honest in their findings. At Surratt House, we are fortunate to have rooms filled with file cabinets and boxes of research papers donated to us by dozens of qualified people in the field.

Thanks to their mentorings, I have tried to be objective also. I don't love or hate Louis Weichmann and have no personal attachment to him. His book sits on a shelf by my desk along with The Evidence, American Brutus and Come Retribution. I think he plays a very unique (and possibly indefineable) role in the conspiracy. Until I can document my feelings, I won't be writing a book on him.

First, welcome to Tom!

Laurie, I located Erich Ewald and have contacted him. Hopefully I'll get a response soon. Would you be able to post a file of the original Joseph Abel article that Ewald left with the Society? The title is "A History Of The Trial Of Mrs. Surratt As Told To Me By A Lewis Wiechman At The Time Of President Lincoln's Assassination." Also, I'm not familiar with the apple note that you mentioned, but in his book, p18, Weichmann wrote, "In those days of 1863 (Louis was a teacher at St Matthew's Institute at that time and Surratt visited him frequently) he was accustomed to bring fruits and vegetables from his home in the country to the Washington market to sell. On one of these occasions, in the spring, a short time before Easter, he invited me to accompany him on his return home. I gladly and willingly accepted the invitation." That was when Weichmann first met Mary, Anna and Davy Herold, who was with a portion of the Marine Band of Washington, who came to serenade some newly elected county officials.

Another point you mentioned, the issue of Weichmann's gap at continuing is religious education, he explains it all in his book and I can give you the details if you want.

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 08-30-2015 11:26 AM by L Verge.)

"Laurie, I located Erich Ewald and have contacted him. Hopefully I'll get a response soon. Would you be able to post a file of the original Joseph Abel article that Ewald left with the Society? The title is "A History Of The Trial Of Mrs. Surratt As Told To Me By A Lewis Wiechman At The Time Of President Lincoln's Assassination." Also, I'm not familiar with the apple note that you mentioned, but in his book, p18, Weichmann wrote, "In those days of 1863 (Louis was a teacher at St Matthew's Institute at that time and Surratt visited him frequently) he was accustomed to bring fruits and vegetables from his home in the country to the Washington market to sell. On one of these occasions, in the spring, a short time before Easter, he invited me to accompany him on his return home. I gladly and willingly accepted the invitation." That was when Weichmann first met Mary, Anna and Davy Herold, who was with a portion of the Marine Band of Washington, who came to serenade some newly elected county officials.

'Another point you mentioned, the issue of Weichmann's gap at continuing is religious education, he explains it all in his book and I can give you the details if you want."

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Please give my regards to Erich. It has been about twenty years since we had contact. The last I heard, he was fairly well up in city government in Anderson, Indiana, and I know that he has written extensively on other aspects of Indiana history over the years as his historical interests moved on.

As for the Joseph Abel piece, give me a few days to locate it. I have not been in those files per se since they were moved to our James O. Hall Research Center a dozen years ago. Our new librarian has only been on the job a few weeks and needs to familiarize herself with the lay of the land. Museum-wise, it has been a very busy year for us in terms of visitation and programming with tourism averaging nearly 2000 patrons per month since March - about double our usual numbers. Mount Vernon might snicker, but our minimal staff and volunteers have been kept quite busy giving tours.

I do apologize for not posting after your first entries on Weichmann. I didn't realize that you had done your own research on Weichmann, over and above his memoirs and what others in the field had done. I read True History... in the late-70s or early-80s, and it has been about thirty years since Erich Ewald (who is from Anderson, IN) had supplied his research to the Surratt Society, Hall, and Brennan, with whom I was in daily contact (Betty and Blaine Houmes can tell you what a wonderful experience that was!). I did not know that anyone else had tackled the subject of Louis. Of course, I don't even know your last name, so I likely would never have made the connection. Sorry.

P.S. His book is about one foot from my desk at work, so I'll refresh my memory on his reasons for not returning to college or to his home and instead heading south in 1862. I do remember wondering if it had anything to do with the imposing of the draft. If they can't find you, they can't draft you? It seemed to have worked for both Surratt and Booth...