What makes a great politician?

[AussieMick]

You ( both of you ... and the media does as well) raise an interesting issue. Is it wrong for the leader of a nation to speak in same the way that they would with close friends? Kate mentions LBJ. I think I read that he was known to often use crude 4-letter words in private.

Obviously theres a time and place when words that we wouldnt use in front of our mother are out of place. Ive no doubt that the Queen is aware of the words I'm referring to. But Im sure Pres Trump wouldnt use those words in front of her or Prime Minister May.

But I see nothing wrong with him using *some* of them in an interview ... some words though are still too obscene for TV. I havent seen the interview ... but if the word used begins with sh then I should just say its perhaps the most commonly used word in Australia. My wife (the most strait-laced person I know) has sometimes said it when stubbing a toe ... or dropping a plate ... or suddenly remembering a missed appointment ... or ... etc ... she even said it once in front of a class of primary school students (but apologised immediately).

(My opinion is that the media, in the US UK and Australia and elsewhere, is making itself appear ridiculous in the way it hysterically explodes whenever President Trump makes an utterance which they regard as unacceptable or non-politically correct)

.... Ok, just seen a 5 second piece on TV. Yes, it's not the most diplomatic few seconds. I would have liked to see the full context but even so he was obviously speaking forcefully and expressing his view clearly ... I prefer that to the hypocrisy and waffle and downright lies that so many politicians have uttered over the years.

[RJNorton]

(01-13-2018 02:09 AM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  young children use this forum too, not just adults

Kate, thank you very much for this comment. I always hope the forum can be used in classrooms, and that when disagreements occur, folks do not use foul language or attack each other personally.
It is possible to disagree, yet still respect the rights of all who want to state an opinion. So far that is what is happening in this thread, and I will keep it open as long as that continues to be the case.

[Gene C]

I can agree with AussieMick regarding his comments on the media.

I first remember hearing the following statement (or something similar to it) from Juan Williams, a commentator on Fox News. I don't always agree with him, but he makes his point in an educated, civil manner.

"We can disagree, without being disagreeable"

And there is this famous quote I'm sure we all remember from childhood.
"It's not always just what you say, but how you say it" - Mom

[JMadonna]

At the Harry S. Truman library their is a series of telephones that have recordings of the late president on various issues. I picked one up regarding his live comments on Meet the Press in 1949 about Stalin...."well the problem is you just can't trust the S--O--B." Crude but accurate and no media firestorm.

[David Lockmiller]

(01-13-2018 02:09 AM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  The word that President Trump allegedly spoke the other day, does not bother me. It was just a word, crude but accurate.

It would appear that you are in good company!

“Trump’s vulgarity: Overt racism or a president who says what many think?”

Washington Post - By Jenna Johnson, Vanessa Williams and Marc Fisher
January 12 at 7:00 PM

Right-wing extremists and white supremacists welcomed Trump’s comment. Former Ku Klux Klan leader and Louisiana legislator David Duke said on Twitter that the president “restores a lot of love in us by saying blunt but truthful things that no other President in our lifetime would dare say!”

Contrast this with the actions of another President in our lifetime, John F. Kennedy:

In late September, 1962, the administration of President John F. Kennedy had extensive discussions with Governor Barnett and his staff about protecting Meredith, but Barnett publicly vowed to keep the university segregated.

The Ole Miss riot of 1962, or Battle of Oxford, was fought between Southern segregationist civilians and federal and state forces beginning the night of September 30, 1962; segregationists were protesting the enrollment of James Meredith, a black US military veteran, at the University of Mississippi (known affectionately as Ole Miss) at Oxford, Mississippi. Two civilians were killed during the night, including a French journalist, and over 300 people were injured, including one third of the US Marshals deployed.

When you watch all of these South East Conference football games now on most Fall Saturday's, the vast majority of people sitting in the stands are white and the vast majority of players on the football field are black, including a number of black quarterbacks.

[L Verge]

"(My opinion is that the media, in the US UK and Australia and elsewhere, is making itself appear ridiculous in the way it hysterically explodes whenever President Trump makes an utterance which they regard as unacceptable or non-politically correct)

".... Ok, just seen a 5 second piece on TV. Yes, it's not the most diplomatic few seconds. I would have liked to see the full context but even so he was obviously speaking forcefully and expressing his view clearly ... I prefer that to the hypocrisy and waffle and downright lies that so many politicians have uttered over the years."

AussieMick - I have never met you, but I think I love you! Truer words were never spoken, imo. That goes for Kate also.

I am so d--n sick of the sideshow that the liberal press and the puppet masters behind the scenes are turning this country (not just the Presidency) into that I could spit molten lava. And, it doesn't take too much sense to figure out who the instigators are. This isn't a true witch hunt because it's the witches and warlocks doing the hunting.

If some of you want to denounce me as one of those right-wing Republicans, you're dead wrong! I have been a registered Democrat since age 21, but I am very disenchanted with the national party - still vote for some Democrats in our state elections. In truth, I would register as an Independent if Maryland allowed Independents to vote in primaries.

Enough, before I really get on my soap box. I just want to second Jerry's comment on Truman. His wife used to apologize for his bad language all the time.

[JMadonna]

(01-13-2018 07:17 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Enough, before I really get on my soap box. I just want to second Jerry's comment on Truman. His wife used to apologize for his bad language all the time.

One day HST was informing the press crew about how he put manure on his farm field. One reporter turned to Bess and whispered how the President shouldn't be using the word 'manure'. She shook her head and replied that it took her years to get him to use the word 'manure'.

a rose by any other name....

[My Name Is Kate]

The person quoted in David Lockmiller's next-to-last post, Senator J. William Fulbright, former chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, was a Segregationist. Look it up. So it looks like the accuser is in the same company too, without even knowing it.

Call me a racist, bigot, white supremacist, extremist, etc., if that's what it takes to feel superior and righteous. But I am none of those things.

President Trump never said a word about the people who live in the "********" countries. He was talking about the living conditions and the culture (or lack thereof) in those countries, and asking why the U.S. would want to bring in more people who grew up thinking crime, drug-use, violence, etc. are a normal way of life, and who are not motivated to change their thinking or way of life. I doubt that even the countries referred to are truly offended by the comment. They know that's what they are and they know that's why their people want to leave and come here. When they come here, though, the liberals and Democrats have no further interest in them and do nothing to improve their circumstances. They just want their votes in return for giving them subsistence-level welfare (paid for by taxpayers). And the people in favor of bringing them here, make sure they don't end up living in THEIR neighborhood. It's always someone else's neighborhood where they end up. I've lived in poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods for 20 years. It's no fun. Nobody is friends with anybody else. If you have anything nice, they just want to take it away from you.

How many on this forum who despise President Trump (and probably me too) have ever lived in such neighborhoods? And have you heard, black unemployment is at an all-time low, as we speak. What did other presidents, Obama included, ever do about black unemployment and the inner cities?

Also, I'm sick and tired of people disparaging right-wing Republican conservatives. Conservatism, in its true form, is common sense. It stands for liberty, self-reliance (instead of government reliance), rule of law, the Constitution. White supremacists and conservatism have nothing in common.

[David Lockmiller]

(01-13-2018 09:35 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  The person quoted in David Lockmiller's next-to-last post, Senator J. William Fulbright, former chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, was a Segregationist. Look it up. So it looks like the accuser is in the same company too, without even knowing it.

Call me a racist, bigot, white supremacist, extremist, etc., if that's what it takes to feel superior and righteous. But I am none of those things.

President Trump never said a word about the people who live in the "********" countries. . . .

If you look it up, what I said in that referenced "next-to-last post" of mine was the following:

"I should like to add another voice to my opinion regarding President Kennedy". . . . Mark Shields, [who] worked for Senator J. William Fulbright, former chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, in his last campaign in 1974 in Arkansas, quoted Senator Fulbright as having said “Whenever I went to the White House when John Kennedy was president, I was proud as an American that he was my president.”

What exactly was the accusation against you that I made in that next-to-last post, Kate? I do not even mention your name in that next-to-last post of mine.

Then, Kate makes the following accusation against me regarding my last post: "Call me a racist, bigot, white supremacist, extremist, etc., if that's what it takes to feel superior and righteous. But I am none of those things."

In my last post, I first quoted from Kate's previous post as follows:

"The word that President Trump allegedly spoke the other day, does not bother me. It was just a word, crude but accurate."

I then began my last post after quoting Kate with these words:

"It would appear that you are in good company!"

["Good company" was meant as sarcasm to describe the repugnant two classes of people described in the Washington Post article quoted below who happen to share your opinion regarding these poor Caribbean and African countries.]

Thereafter, I immediately quoted from Washington Post article titled "“Trump’s vulgarity: Overt racism or a president who says what many think?” This story was published in the Saturday, January 13 Washington Post (byline dated January 12 at 7:00 PM).

As the title of the article suggests, the question being considered in the article is whether the words used by President Trump were signs of "overt racism" or was President Trump merely "crudely" saying in this White House meeting with members of Congress from both parties what many American citizens actually think.

The quoted paragraph is as follows:

Right-wing extremists and white supremacists welcomed Trump’s comment. Former Ku Klux Klan leader and Louisiana legislator David Duke said on Twitter that the president “restores a lot of love in us by saying blunt but truthful things that no other President in our lifetime would dare say!”

There is only a small distinction, if any, between David Duke describing President Trump as "saying blunt but truthful things" and kate describing President Trump's vulgar verbal expression said in context as "It was just a word, crude but accurate." What is the difference between "crude but accurate" and "blunt but truthful" in describing these poor countries as "********" countries?

Then, Kate made the statement: "President Trump never said a word about the people who live in the "********" countries."

Not true. It has been reliably alleged that President Trump asked why any immigrants from these "******** countries" should be permitted to immigrate to the United States. Instead, he allegedly proposed that more people from "Norway and countries like that" should be permitted to immigrate to the United States.

[My Name Is Kate]

I had hoped for a better response than that from you. I was hoping to have a rational discussion so I can try to understand what all the liberal blind, irrational hatred is about in this country. But apparently all liberals can do is lump anyone who disagrees with them, into "repugnant classes of people", then act outraged when they get a reaction to that, because they were careful to avoid actually using the disagreeing person's name in their attacks. You have not answered a single one of my questions, or responded to any points I made. If you are typical of most liberals, then trying to reason with a liberal is hopeless.

[David Lockmiller]

(01-14-2018 02:03 AM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  I had hoped for a better response than that from you. I was hoping to have a rational discussion so I can try to understand what all the liberal blind, irrational hatred is about in this country. But apparently all liberals can do is lump anyone who disagrees with them, into "repugnant classes of people", then act outraged when they get a reaction to that, because they were careful to avoid actually using the disagreeing person's name in their attacks. You have not answered a single one of my questions, or responded to any points I made. If you are typical of most liberals, then trying to reason with a liberal is hopeless.

I disagree entirely with your statement that "[I] have not answered a single one of [your] questions, or responded to any points [you] made." I will let the other participants in the Lincoln Discussion Symposium decide for themselves who has made the more accurate statement in this regard.

However, I shall permit a Republican U.S. Senator from the South to also respond to some of the points that you made. The name of the of the U.S. Senator from South Carolina is Lindsey Graham.

Headline: A Senior Republican Senator Admonishes Trump: ‘America Is an Idea, Not a Race’
New York Times By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS JAN. 12, 2018

WASHINGTON — It was just after President Trump had finished railing in the Oval Office against African immigrants he said came from “******** countries” when a senior Republican senator, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, who was there to negotiate a deal on immigration, spoke up.

“America is an idea, not a race,” Mr. Graham said, according to three people familiar with the exchange on Thursday. Diversity was a strength, he said, not a weakness. And by the way, the senator added, he himself was a descendant of immigrants who came to the United States from “******** countries with no skills.”

Note: Out of respect for the regular readers of the Lincoln Discussion Symposium and any school children who might read this post, I have changed the repeated actual word used in this publication of the New York Times that goes out to millions of readers, including school children, to "********".

[My Name Is Kate]

You just cannot see beyond identity politics, can you? Did I say, or imply, that I thought America was a race? What I am against is more people with criminal mindsets, drug-dependence, violence-predilection, etc., entering this country. It is only you who is turning this into a racial issue. If some or most or all of the ******** countries are primarily nonwhite, whose fault is that? It should be needless to say that every country has some people with criminal mindsets, drug-dependence, violence-predilection, etc., but the problem is that the liberals (maybe some RINOs too, like Sen. Graham) apparently presented a proposal to President Trump that would encourage immigrants from ******** countries to the exclusion or near-exclusion of other countries, such as Norway. If you want lots of immigrants from countries where the chances are much higher that those immigrants will not be an asset, but a liability to this country, please make sure that you relocate yourself so that you are living right smack dab in the middle of the worst of them. If you like living there, then you have won this debate.

[David Lockmiller]

At an event in Wisconsin on Friday, Speaker Paul D. Ryan described Mr. Trump’s comments as “very unfortunate” and “unhelpful.” Mr. Ryan went on to recall how his own relatives immigrated to the United States from Ireland.

Source: A Senior Republican Senator Admonishes Trump: ‘America Is an Idea, Not a Race’
New York Times By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS JAN. 12, 2018

---

The following are the three highest recommended comments made by New York Times readers to this story. All three comments are also New York Times Picks.

KP
Portland. OR
The republicans in the room who still keep silent are the real culprits.
• 4410 Recommend
Aaron
Traverse City, MI
Can we just call this what it is? Trump uses crude, crass, racist language and then LIES about. No need for dickering here, this is who Trump is.
• 3534 Recommend
Joe Lansing, MI
This is NOT "racially tinged" language. It's racist.
• 3304 Recommend


And, speaking of the highest rated comment, the New York Times article also states the following:

“In a joint statement released on Friday, two Republican senators who also attended the session, Tom Cotton of Arkansas and David Perdue of Georgia, charged that Democrats were acting dishonorably, claiming that they could not remember whether Mr. Trump used the words attributed to him.”

[Please note, Kate, these same two U.S. Senators did not comment on the remarks made by Republican U.S. Senator Lindsay Graham and the Republican Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan. I wonder why not. Maybe you have an answer to this question. And, do you believe these two U.S. Senators when they say that “could not remember whether Mr. Trump used the words attributed to him” although they were all sitting together in the Oval Office of the White House?]

You probably consider Senators Cotton and Perdue to be great politicians, but we will have to disagree about that assessment until the end of time.

[Gene C]

Some interesting comments. Some we agree with and some we disagree with.
Time to move on before feelings get hurt.

[L Verge]

I think Kate's and David's feelings are already hurt, Gene, but fighting back and expressing their viewpoints is how they deal with it -- just like most of us who care deeply about things (especially the future of our country). I just want to add my two-cents in saying that I would never trust any comments printed in either the NY Times or the Washington Post. In fact, as most of you know by now, I don't trust 90% of the media, and I keep my radar up on the other 10%.

Going to college in the 1960s, I was exposed to a lot of liberal professors and radical thinkers who were hopping from one venue to the other, and I still accuse them and others of starting the downhill slide that we are still in. I did have one U.S. history prof, however, who was young and feisty; and he's the one who warned us every step of the way to beware the mainline media. He accused them of establishing the Fourth Estate in our culture and being determined to sway thoughts instead of reporting facts. It has been 55 years since I was in that class, but his words still ring in my ears when I listen to or read so much of what comes through the media.

My thoughts (and then I'll try to shut up) are that Kate is correct in saying that President Trump was referring to countries with severe cultural problems - not races or individuals themselves. Again, the media today is trained to flip out the race card immediately whenever the opportunity arises. Unfortunately, more and more citizens are using the same technique.

David quoted Paul Ryan as being from an Irish background. I just did a lengthy article in the Surratt Courier on the history of the lowly potato (yes, the potato!). At least 50% of the article pertained to the effect that the spud had on Irish history and the resulting immigration into the U.S. in the 1840s and 1850s - immigration that resulted in clashes of culture, religion, gangs, etc. that lasted for years as the American culture tried to assimilate the Irish.

This is the same issue that President Trump is referring to today, imo. We know that the Irish ended up being an integral part of our society, but it wasn't easy for either them or the entrenched U.S. citizens. Much of the same has gone on over the past 20 years with the Latino immigration. I have lovely Latino friends, but I also live in the DC suburbs which are heavily plagued by MS-13 gangs. And, while the media here is attacking President Trump on his immigration views, they are also screaming and giving front page coverage to the atrocities being committed by such gangs. It seems that everything has to be sensationalism today.

As for quotes from various politicians - either inside the Oval Office or hiding in their offices on Capitol Hill, they are above all else, politicians with a desire to keep being politicians. Therefore, a great majority of them will say what they think their constituents (or big corporations) want them to say in order to get re-elected. They don't worry about doing their elected duties and trying to solve some of the problems already upon us before we even bring on new ones.

Those are my thoughts and I'm sticking to them and hope that I have not offended too many of you.