Charlottesville

[brtmchl]

(08-25-2017 07:54 AM)JMadonna Wrote:  I heard they wanted to ban the University of South Carolina's mascot a white horse named Traveler because of its name. Who knew a horse could be racist?

It is University of Southern California Trojan's. Actually Robert R Lee's horse's name was spelled Traveller. According to Wikipedia, "The idea for the current mascot began during the 1961 Rose Parade, when a USC events director spotted Richard Saukko and his white horse, "Traveler", marching in the parade. The university persuaded Saukko to ride his horse during USC football games."

Saukko made his first appearance on Traveler I in 1961, wearing a costume worn by Charlton Heston in the movie "Ben-Hur."

In 1968 the current mascot Traveler's second "L" was removed most likely because it was believed to have been named after RE Lee's horse.

University of South Carolina is Gamecocks. In honor of Thomas Sumter, who was nicknamed the "Carolina Gamecock" after British General Banastre Tarleton said Sumter "fought like a gamecock" during the Revolutionary WAr.

[RJNorton]

(08-25-2017 07:54 AM)JMadonna Wrote:  I heard they wanted to ban the University of South Carolina's mascot a white horse named Traveler

Jerry, Mike is right. Please see the link Dan posted.

[L Verge]

Interesting related article: http://www.civilwarprofiles.com/grant-pr...son-trial/

[David Lockmiller]

(08-25-2017 01:28 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Interesting related article: http://www.civilwarprofiles.com/grant-pr...son-trial/

The following is an excerpt:

Following the end of Civil War hostilities in 1865, there were many in the North who wanted the civil and military officials of the Confederacy to stand trial for treason.

The New York Times was a leading proponent for treason charges against Lee, writing in a June 4, 1865 editorial: “He has ‘levied war against the United States’ more strenuously than any other man in the land, and thereby has been specially guilty of the crime of treason, as defined in the Constitution of the United States,” and “whether Gen. Lee should be hung [or] not, is a minor question.”

[O]n June 7, 1865, U.S. District Judge John C. Underwood in Norfolk, Virginia, handed down treason indictments against Lee, James Longstreet, Jubal Early, and others stating the terms of parole agreed upon with Lee were “a mere military arrangement, and can have no influence upon civil rights or the status of the persons interested.” When Lee, who was preparing to apply for amnesty, became aware of the indictments, he wrote Grant asking if the Appomattox terms were still in effect.

After reading Lee’s letter, Grant forwarded his own views to Secretary of War Edwin Stanton on June 16, 1865.

Grant also visited personally with President Johnson to discuss the situation, but was dismayed to find that Johnson fully intended to let the proceedings continue. Grant insisted the Appomattox terms be honored. Johnson asked when the men could be tried. “Never,” Grant responded, “unless they violate their paroles.”

Andrew Johnson, however, was just as stubborn as Grant and told the general he wouldn’t interfere with the prosecution. Grant too refused to back down, telling the President he would resign his commission if the surrender terms were not honored. Johnson realized he had lost; the public would never support him over the far-more popular Grant. Word was sent to the U.S. District Attorney in Norfolk to drop the proceedings.

Grant then responded to Lee’s letter. Copying his comments to Stanton in the reply, he wrote on June 20, 1865: “This opinion, I am informed, is substantially the same as that entertained by the Government.” Lee was safe from trial, but Grant never told him how far he had gone to protect him. [End of excerpt.]

Grant was a true gentleman. He did not inform Lee of his intention expressed directly to President Johnson to "resign his commission if the surrender terms were not honored" because that would have created a personal obligation on the part of General Lee that should never have been necessary.

President Lincoln would also have done the right thing regardless of any expression to the contrary made by the Editorial Board of the New York Times at the time.

[L Verge]

Did Lincoln ever express his views on various members of the Confederacy during the war?

[RJNorton]

According to Elizabeth Keckly President Lincoln was looking at a picture of Robert E. Lee on the day of the assassination. He said, "It is a good face; it is the face of a noble, noble, brave man. I am glad that the war is over at last."

The Fehrenbachers do not think highly of the authenticity of this quote, but I have seen it used in quite a few books.

[Eva Elisabeth]

He greeted Alexander Stephens cordially at Hampton Roads (that's a statement, too).

[Eva Elisabeth]

From M. Burlingame's "A Life":

"Aboard the steamer River Queen, anchored in Hampton Roads, he greeted the commissioners warmly. He and Alexander H. Stephens had worked together for the nomination of Zachary Taylor seventeen years earlier when both of them were serving in Congress. As the diminutive Stephens began to remove his heavy overcoat and large scarf, the president poked gentle fun at him: 'Now, gentlemen, you see what a large among of ‘shuck’ Mr. Stephens has – just wait a minute and you will be surprised to find what a small ‘nubbin’ he is.' The president laughed L heartily when Stephens retaliated with a story from their time in Congress: one day at the capitol several Representatives were discussing the proper pronunciation of 'Illinois.' Some said it was 'Illinoy,' others 'Illinoise.' Smilingly, John Quincy Adams quipped: 'If one were to judge from the character of the representatives in this congress from that state, I should decide that the proper was to pronounce the word would be ‘All noise.’ During the informal conversation which preceded the negotiations, Lincoln was very talkative and pleasant with all of the commissioners,'. Stephens recalled. 'He seemed to be in a splendid humor, and was in excellent spirits.' After these pleasantries, the five men got down to business. According to Stephens, Lincoln was 'perfectly frank,' submitting 'his views, almost in the form of an argument.'”

[Reminiscences of Stephens given to Evan P. Howell in 1882, in Howell to Henry Watterson...]

[L Verge]

Thank you, Roger, I do remember reading Keckley's comment on Lincoln and Lee. Do the Fehrenbachers give any reasons for why they discount Keckley saying this? Don't they discount other things that she said?

Eva, thanks also for the River Queen excerpt. Frankly, I'm glad that Burlingame thinks that the put-down of Mr. Stephens was "gentle fun." It sounds rather harsh and sarcastic to me, and I would have been tempted to kick him in his knees -- especially because, I believe, Stephens was a frail man due to chronic illness(?). I do like Stephens's response, however, with my apologies to many friends from Illinois.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Laurie, there's a German proverb saying teasing is a sign of love/affection which I think valid in this case. Despite different political standings the two had probably more affection and respect for each other than Stephens for Jefferson Davis.
You should check out what Abraham Lincoln did for Stephen's nephew right after the meeting:
http://www.libs.uga.edu/hargrett/selecti...etter.html

"Lincoln and Stephens made their acquaintance after Lincoln came to Washington in December 1847 for his first and only congressional term. Lincoln friend Joseph Gillespie wrote: 'Of all men in the South (of those who differed from him on the slavery question I mean[)] Mr[.] Stephens of Georgia was his favorite[.] I have frequently heard him speak in very respectful terms of Stephens[.]' On February 2, 1848, Lincoln wrote law partner William H. Herndon: 'I just take up my pen to say that Mr. Stephens, of Georgia, a little, slim, pale-faced, consumptive man, with a voice like [Stephen T.] Logan’s, has just concluded the very best speech of an hour’s length I ever heard. My old, withered, dry eyes are full of tears yet. If he writes it out anything like he delivered it our people shall see a good many copies of it.'
...
Stephens later said of Lincoln: 'I was as intimate with him as with any other man of that Congress except perhaps one….Mr. Lincoln was warm-hearted; he was generous; he was magnanimous; he was most truly ‘with malice toward none, with charity for all.' Stephens recalled: 'Mr. Lincoln was careful as to his manners, awkward in his speech, but was possessed of a very strong, clear, and vigorous mind. He always attracted the riveted attention of the House when he spoke; his manner of speech as well as thought was original. He had no model. He was a man of strong convictions, and was what Carlyle would have called an earnest man.' Lincoln commented: 'Mr. Stephens is a great man – he’s a man that can get up a blaze whenever he’s a mind to – his speech has got up a great blaze in Georgia – I never could get up a blaze more than once or twice in my life.'”
http://www.abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/...-stephens/

[RJNorton]

(08-26-2017 07:04 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Thank you, Roger, I do remember reading Keckley's comment on Lincoln and Lee. Do the Fehrenbachers give any reasons for why they discount Keckley saying this? Don't they discount other things that she said?

Here is what they say concerning the low grades (C's and D's) they give to her reminiscences:

"The fact that her memoires were ghostwritten tends to diminish their credibility."

(Despite the Fehrenbachers' statement, I do not think the historical community is in 100% agreement on whether or not the book was ghostwritten.)

[L Verge]

Thank you, Eva. I did know that Lincoln and Stephens had a long history of friendship. Coming from a paternal family that loved to tease, I appreciate fun teasing. I just found this Lincoln comment very inappropriate given the circumstances -- high officials of both sides coming together in one last gasp for peace.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(08-27-2017 11:52 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Thank you, Eva. I did know that Lincoln and Stephens had a long history of friendship. Coming from a paternal family that loved to tease, I appreciate fun teasing. I just found this Lincoln comment very inappropriate given the circumstances -- high officials of both sides coming together in one last gasp for peace.

You are a well-educated lady, Laurie, also as for etiquette. Lincoln and Stephens were men who shared a quite similar biography and background - sons of struggling farmers and impoverished at the beginning of their lawyer career who made their way up by themselves.

And then - what were the circumstances? It was an almost private, secret meeting both men had in advanced considered as humbug (Stephens even used this very expression) and mere farce pro forma. The setting aboard the River Queen was probably rather cozy and like in a private living room, the surrounding "staff" of lower rank, so what reason was there to "play" official etiquette and distance as if they were strangers?

I'd like to add this "background" to the release of Stephen's nephew from the last link above as I think it sheds some more light on their mutual feelings in 1865:

"As the meeting was breaking up, Lincoln told the Confederate vice president: 'Well, Stephens, it seems we can do nothing for our country. Is there anything I can do for you?' Stephens requested President Lincoln’s help in securing release of his nephew from a federal prisoner camp at Johnson’s Island, Ohio – where the young Georgian had been held for more than a year. The next day, President Lincoln wrote the camp commandant: 'Parole Lieut. John A. Stephens, prisoner of War, to report to me here in person, and send him to me. It is in pursuance of an arrangement I made yesterday with his uncle, Hon. A. H. Stephens.' John Stephens left Ohio on February 6. Unaware of his impending release, Lieutenant Stephens was delivered to the President’s office at the White House, interrupting a meeting with Secretary of State Seward. After greeting the Confederate visitor, the President said: 'I saw your uncle, the Honorable Alexander H. Stephens, recently, at Hampton Roads and I promised to send you to him, Lieutenant.'

The young Georgia Confederate lingered in Washington for a few days, recovering his health. Before departing, he went again to the White House. President Lincoln presented Lieutenant Stephens with a photograph he had signed: 'You had better take that along; it is considered quite a curiosity down your way, I believe.' The President wrote the elder Stephens a note for the paroled officer to deliver: “According to our agreement, your nephew, Lieut. Stephens, goes to you, bearing this note. Please, in return, to select and send to me, that officer of the same rank, imprisoned at Richmond, whose physical condition most urgently requires his release[.]' It was a day before Stephens’ 53rd birthday and just two days before Lincoln’s 56th and final birthday. Stephens did not receive the Lincoln letter until after he learned of the President’s assassination. 'I almost wept when I saw it,' Stephens recalled."

[L Verge]

I understand and respect your line of thinking on this, Eva, but I still think that (even among friends and in a supposed relaxed setting) such a comment was hurtful - especially in front of such "staff of lower rank" as Seward and the other Confederate envoys - all skilled politicians.

I'm not a fan always of the NY Times, but here is an article that appeared in a 2015 edition of their Opinionator feature. It was written by James B. Conroy, author of the recent Lincoln's White House book:

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20...s/?mcubz=3

[David Lockmiller]

(08-26-2017 02:46 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Did Lincoln ever express his views on various members of the Confederacy during the war?

I copied this material, without footnote references, from the Knox College online version of “Abraham Life: A Life,” Volume II, Chapter 36. It is much the same in the published book in Chapter 36, Volume II, pages 804-805. The footnote references may then be accessed to determine the original sources.

Lincoln was not disposed to withdraw his support of amnesty for most Confederates. According to Gideon Welles, he “dreaded and deprecated violent and revengeful feelings, or any malevolent demonstrations toward those of our countrymen who were involved, voluntarily or involuntarily in the rebellion.” When criticized for excessive leniency, he asked: “How many more lives of our citizen soldiers are the people willing to give up to insure the death penalty to Davis and his immediate coadjutors?”

But what should be done with the Confederate president and his advisors? Lincoln told Grant and Sherman that he hoped that the Rebel leaders would escape the country without his knowledge. Similarly, in response to Postmaster General William Dennison’s query about letting Confederate eminenti escape, the president said: “I should not be sorry to have them out of the country; but I should be for following them up pretty close, to make sure of their going.”

In discussing the possibility of capturing Jefferson Davis, Mary Lincoln allegedly exclaimed: “Don’t allow him to escape the law! He must be hanged.” The president replied: “Let us judge not that we be not judged.”

When Charles A. Dana asked if he should order the arrest of Jacob Thompson, who had served as a Confederate agent in Canada as well as James Buchanan’s secretary of the interior, Lincoln replied: “no, I rather think not. When you have got an elephant by the hind leg, and he’s trying to run away, it’s best to let him run.”

But what if Confederate leaders did not emigrate? Lincoln told Schuyler Colfax “that he did not want their blood, but that we could not have peace or order in the South while they remained there with their great influence to poison public opinion.” To encourage them to flee, he suggested that military authorities “inform them that if they stay, they will be punished for their crimes, but if they leave, no attempt will be made to hinder them. Then we can be magnanimous to all the rest and have peace and quiet in the whole land.” Lincoln did not indicate what he would recommend if Confederate leaders still refused to take the hint.

The subject of amnesty came up at a cabinet meeting on April 14. According to Welles, Lincoln expressed the hope that “there would be no persecution, no bloody work, after the war was over. None need expect he would take any part in hanging or killing those men, even the worst of them. Frighten them out of the country, open the gates, let down the bars, scare them off,” he said, gesturing as if he were shooing sheep. “Enough lives have been sacrificed. We must extinguish our resentments if we expect harmony and union.” Stanton reported that Lincoln “spoke very kindly of General Lee and others of the Confederacy” and showed “in marked degree the kindness and humanity of his disposition, and the tender and forgiving spirit that so eminently distinguished him.”

At the April 14 cabinet meeting, with Grant in attendance, Lincoln stressed that Reconstruction “was the great question now before us, and we must soon begin to act.”