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Tadsecrete · 06-20-2016, 04:16 PM

Just out of curiosity, did Abrahams fingerprints ever get recorded in history?

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 05:17 PM by Gene C.)

Yes, but since they were stored on Hillary's server for safe keeping, there is no telling where they really are now.

Rolleyes

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 05:40 PM by L Verge.)

Great comment, Gene!

According to this source on the history of fingerprinting, the concept was not developed until around 1870 and took another 30+ years to be really put into use.

"Other visible human characteristics such as facial features tend to change with age, but fingerprints are relatively persistent. Barring injuries or surgery causing deep scarring, or diseases such as leprosy damaging the formative layers of friction ridge skin, finger and palm print features have never been shown to move about or change their unit relationship throughout the life of a person (and injuries, scarring and diseases tend to exhibit telltale indicators of unnatural change).

"In earlier civilizations, branding or maiming were used to mark persons as criminals. The thief was deprived of the hand which committed the thievery. Ancient Romans employed the tattoo needle to identify and prevent desertion of mercenary soldiers from their ranks.

"Before the mid-1800s, law enforcement officers with extraordinary visual memories, so-called "camera eyes," identified previously arrested offenders by sight alone. Photography lessened the burden on memory, but was not the answer to the criminal identification problem. Personal appearances change.

"Around 1870, French anthropologist Alphonse Bertillon devised a system to measure and record the dimensions of certain bony parts of the body. These measurements were reduced to a formula which, theoretically, would apply only to one person and would not change during his/her adult life.

"The Bertillon System was generally accepted for thirty years. But the anthropometric measurement system never recovered from the events of 1903, when a man named Will West was sentenced to the US Penitentiary at Leavenworth, Kansas. It was discovered there was already a prisoner at the penitentiary, whose Bertillon measurements were nearly the same, and his name was William West.

"Upon investigation, there were indeed two men who looked very similar. Their names were William and Will West. Their Bertillon measurements were close enough to identify them as the same person. However, a fingerprint comparison quickly and correctly identified them as two different people. (According to prison records publicized years later, the West men were apparently identical twin brothers and each had a record of correspondence with the same immediate family relatives.)"

Tadsecrete · 06-20-2016, 07:08 PM

Lol Gene C....about the fingerprint, I wonder if any prints have been "lifted" from any of his many documents?

L Verge · 06-20-2016, 07:15 PM

The fingerprinting processes that I have seen are quite messy. Maybe the technique has improved, but I would not want to see any of Lincoln's archival papers put through the process.

J. Beckert · (This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 08:52 PM by J. Beckert.)

As a former practicing Dactyloctopist, I can assure you Lincoln's (or anyone else from the period) fingerprints are long gone, unless preserved in some material that would make a cast of them.

Tadsecrete · 06-20-2016, 08:54 PM

(06-20-2016 08:43 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: As a former practicing Dactyloctopist, I can assure you Lincoln's (or anyone else from the period) fingerprints are long gone.

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. NOT his actual fingerprints from his body, but rather, no evidence of his prints would be on any documents?
The large fingerprints underneath the chest of drawers appear to be in white wash paint. If from 1850ish then I have SOMEBODY's fingerprints from long ago.

Gene C · 06-20-2016, 09:02 PM

(06-20-2016 08:54 PM)Tadsecrete Wrote: The large fingerprints underneath the chest of drawers appear to be in white wash paint. If from 1850ish then I have SOMEBODY's fingerprints from long ago.

Unfortunately, they could just as easily be from the 1950's.

If I remember correctly, J Beckert (Joe) used to be with law enforcement in NJ (State Police?) so he knows about fingerprints.

Tadsecrete · 06-20-2016, 09:17 PM

I am just trying to clarify the statement "any fingerprints are long gone".....some antique furniture was indeed marked with finger marks...

J. Beckert · 06-20-2016, 09:49 PM

A fingerprint, as I said, preserved by a cast (paint might work) could be preserved, but then the trick is identifying it against a matching, existing print. Ain't gonna happen in this case, unless a known print can be found which it can be compared to.

RJNorton · 06-21-2016, 05:28 AM

(06-17-2016 06:56 AM)Tadsecrete Wrote: Due to the subject matter in the etchings, I believe the chest of drawers to be POST White House years.

Brian and Rachel...in your study of Tad's post White House movements what is your best guess as to where and when Tad might have done these carvings?

Tadsecrete · (This post was last modified: 06-21-2016 06:56 AM by Tadsecrete.)

(06-21-2016 05:28 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(06-17-2016 06:56 AM)Tadsecrete Wrote: Due to the subject matter in the etchings, I believe the chest of drawers to be POST White House years.

Brian and Rachel...in your study of Tad's post White House movements what is your best guess as to where and when Tad might have done these carvings?

I truly believe that the etchings are more "mature" than his etching on the rocker.i'm not positive, but I doubt that it was overseas at anytime. So, yhat helps me to narrow my choices. Also, some etchings are very detailed and could have taken months to complete. I would guess that it was from their final dwelling before going overseas. But, I think they owned the piece for quite sometime. Just my opinion.

Interesting document from Harvard showing that Lincon the freshman was fined TWO dollars for writing on Mr. Bate's settee. Family habit?

Interestingly, Robert Lincoln was fined TWO DOLLARS at Harvard for writing on a.settee.

RJNorton · 06-21-2016, 07:52 AM

(06-21-2016 06:23 AM)Tadsecrete Wrote: Family habit?

I do not know about a family habit, but here's an example of Thomas Lincoln, Abraham's father, doing some carving. When Abraham's brother, Tommy, died in infancy, Thomas Lincoln made a coffin for his child. It is believed he was the one who carved the letters T.L. into a stone that would be little Tommy's original grave marker.

Tadsecrete · 06-21-2016, 08:11 AM

(06-21-2016 07:52 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(06-21-2016 06:23 AM)Tadsecrete Wrote: Family habit?

I do not know about a family habit, but here's an example of Thomas Lincoln, Abraham's father, doing some carving. When Abraham's brother, Tommy, died in infancy, Thomas Lincoln made a coffin for his child. It is believed he was the one who carved the letters T.L. into a stone that would be little Tommy's original grave marker.

Fascinating, your knowledge never ceases to intrigue me. I have spoken with a nice young lady at Hildene who informed me that she was fascinated by, and will look at the furniture there for any strange markings. Hoping beyond hope that a makers mark might be found. Thanks for the info Mr. Norton!

Tadsecrete · 06-21-2016, 10:31 AM

(06-17-2016 02:05 PM)RJNorton Wrote:
(06-17-2016 06:56 AM)Tadsecrete Wrote: Due to the subject matter in the etchings, I believe the chest of drawers to be POST White House years.

Also, in June 1867 Mary sold at least some of her furniture to a man named John Alston. I am not sure what Alston did with it.

M. Norton....is there ANY record of what was sold to Mr. Alston...and, who was this Mr. Alston....local business man???