Stupid question?

[loetar44]

A former teacher of mine used to say that stupid or dumb questions do not exist. Maybe he had to say that not the question, but the questioner can’t be stupid, because a question doesn't have a brain. I realize that not all questions can be answered. That said, here is one. Sam Arnold said in his April 18, 1865 confession: “A box painted black like unto a sword box was sent to Booth from Hotel by a Porter there, to our room. Next day transferred in wagon, O’Laughlen acting pilot to some place. I was not present. After giving box to driver went to Georgetown and O’Laughlen had the full charge of it. M. O’Laughlen said he took it to a Mr. Heard and from thence the unknown carried it to his house, took guns out and carried them to Peedee. This latter clause Booth told me.” I suspect “Mr. Heard” and “the unknown” both are Davey Herold, “Peedee” is “T.B” and the “guns” were the two Spencer carbines which were hidden in John Lloyd's leased tavern on March 17 (or 18 ?) 1865. What does this forum think?

[Gene C]

That sounds reasonable.
I don't know enough to give you a better answer.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I second Gene. PS: Here you would say there are no stupid questions, just stupid replies (actually I referring to the reply that it was a stupid question). Probably derived from LaoTse, who said who asks is a fool for a minute; he who doesn't ask remains a fool for the rest of his life.

[RJNorton]

I "third" Gene and Eva!

Seems logical, Kees. One thing I noticed, though, is the listing for Heard in "Memoirs of a Lincoln Conspirator" edited by Mike Kauffman. Heard is listed in the index, and the sole reference reads "accepts guns from O'Laughlen." The mystery to me is that after the word "Heard" Mike K. writes in parentheses "Hurtt?" Maybe I am misinterpreting, but it comes across to me as Mike thinking Arnold's reference to a "Mr. Heard" might actually be a reference to a "Mr. Hurtt." I must say I do not ever recall seeing a reference to a person named Hurtt in Lincoln assassination literature, so I have no clue to whom Mike might be referring, or why he put "Hurtt?" in parentheses after "Heard."

[loetar44]

Kauffmann is often logical to me, but a Mr. Hurtt, hmmm … never heard of a Mr. Hurtt. It seems logical to me that Booth purchased weapons in New York, travelled around January 11 to Baltimore with a heavy trunk full of weapons and had transported at least a part of them (to lighten his trunk) to Washington by Arnold and O’Laughlen. Then Booth divided the weapons (pistols, knives) among the conspirators and transported the rest to a save place, i.e. Herold’s house. It was O’Laughlen who brought those weapons to a “Mr. Heard” = Herold. And Herold (with John Surratt and Atzerodt) transferred two Spencer carbines (and ammunition; also a rope from sixteen to twenty feet in length, and a monkey wrench, as Lloyd declared) to Lloyd’s Tavern on March 17, 1865. Want to know if this is the “exact route” the two carbines followed. Who has more?

[L Verge]

I'm working without the proper books in front of me, but my brain is remembering a Mr. Hurtt being mentioned somewhere in the picture. I want to say that it had something to do with the village of Piscataway and that Hurtt may have been a doctor. Or, my brain may just be frozen - 17 degrees in balmy Southern Maryland today. I'm at home, refusing to go to work.

Didn't Arnold and O'Laughlen also take a room in a boardinghouse in D.C. and have some of the items with them? As for any weapons, etc. being taken to Herold's house, I strongly doubt that. Unless David had means of storing them someplace where all those sisters and his mother could not learn of them, he wouldn't take the chance.

---

Kees - Don't forget that the Spencer carbines, rope, and monkey wrench were in the supplies that went as far south as T.B. on the night of March 17, 1865. Herold spent the night at the T.B. Hotel before packing up and heading back towards D.C. the morning of March 18. He was met on the road between T.B. and Surrattsville by Surratt and Atzerodt and hidden in the area over the kitchen and dining room at the tavern.

In another case of dumb luck, Powell wasn't the only conspirator to arrive when federal officers were at a Surratt domicile. When Surratt and Atzerodt arrived to talk with John Lloyd about stashing the items, Atzerodt's brother-in-law (a federal officer) was having a respite at the tavern.

[loetar44]

Right Laurie - Michael Schein writes in his "John Surratt: The Lincoln Assassin Who Got Away" how Herold (on March 17, 1865 – the failed kidnapping of Lincoln) was dispatched to pick up Booth’s buggy and head for Surrattsville, carrying with him an arsenal of weapons that Booth had collected.

Herold hung around the [Surrattsville] tavern for a while but nobody showed up with Lincoln a prisoner. So Herold headed towards T.B., where he arrived at the hotel of John C. Thompson about eight o’clock that night. Herold needed help hauling a trunk into the barroom. This was Booth’s trunk, heavy with two carbines, a couple of double-barrel shotguns, a pistol, a knife, a sword, rope and a wrench. Herold claimed he was going duck hunting. He asked whether John Surratt had come by, and let it be known that Surratt was expected. The next morning, most likely March 18, Herold had breakfast, shot off his pistols into the air, then started back towards Surrattsville.

Surratt and Atzerodt had fled Washington and were headed towards T.B. to find Herold. The three met up on the road between T.B. and Surrattsville. According to the testimony of John M. Lloyd, Mrs. Surratt’s tenant at Surratt’s Tavern, the three men came in, took a drink, and started playing cards. Then Surratt called Lloyd into the front parlor, where he had Booth’s carbines laid out on the sofa, along with a cartridge box, coiled rope and a monkey wrench. The monkey wrench was to be used to remove the wheels from Lincoln’s carriage, so that it could be more easily ferried across the Potomac, and the rope was to be stretched across the road to break the pursuit of any cavalry that might follow.

Surratt insisted that Lloyd hide the carbines in the house. Lloyd claims he objected and had to be persuaded by Surratt, but more likely he was a willing participant. Surratt, who had grown up in that house, knew just the place. He led Lloyd upstairs with the carbines to a sealed attic off the storeroom where the butt ends of the ceiling joists above the dining room were exposed above the attached kitchen. Surratt slipped the carbines between the joists. There they stayed, until about midnight on the night of the assassination, when Booth and Herold came to call for them. One of these same carbines was in Booth’s hands when he was shot by Boston Corbett at Garrett’s barn in Maryland.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/158617

The question remains: where exactly were the weapons before Herold took them to Surrattsville? In Herold's house? In Booth's hotelroom? In the stable behind Ford's Theatre (where, if my memory is right, the buggy was, the buggy bought by Arnold in Baltimore and brought to D.C. by Herold and O'Laughlen), or some other place? Arnold confessed (18 April 1865) "M. O’Laughlen said he took it [the trunk] to a Mr. Heard and from thence the unknown carried it to his house". If the "unknown" is the same "unknown" who was at Gauthier's on March 15 than this unknown person is Herold. Arnold said about this man, that he was: "a young man, name unknown, as I cannot remember names". And Arnold said: "We walked up together, Michael O’Laughlen, this unknown and myself were ushered [at Gauthier's] into the presence of J. Wilkes Booth who introduced me to John Surratt, Atzerodt (alias Port Tobacco) (alias) Mosby (= Powell) making in all seven persons." The seventh person was: Herold.

[L Verge]

(01-19-2016 12:58 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  Right Laurie - Michael Schein writes in his "John Surratt: The Lincoln Assassin Who Got Away" how Herold (on March 17, 1865 – the failed kidnapping of Lincoln) was dispatched to pick up Booth’s buggy and head for Surrattsville, carrying with him an arsenal of weapons that Booth had collected.

Herold hung around the [Surrattsville] tavern for a while but nobody showed up with Lincoln a prisoner. So Herold headed towards T.B., where he arrived at the hotel of John C. Thompson about eight o’clock that night. Herold needed help hauling a trunk into the barroom. This was Booth’s trunk, heavy with two carbines, a couple of double-barrel shotguns, a pistol, a knife, a sword, rope and a wrench. Herold claimed he was going duck hunting. He asked whether John Surratt had come by, and let it be known that Surratt was expected. The next morning, most likely March 18, Herold had breakfast, shot off his pistols into the air, then started back towards Surrattsville.

Surratt and Atzerodt had fled Washington and were headed towards T.B. to find Herold. The three met up on the road between T.B. and Surrattsville. According to the testimony of John M. Lloyd, Mrs. Surratt’s tenant at Surratt’s Tavern, the three men came in, took a drink, and started playing cards. Then Surratt called Lloyd into the front parlor, where he had Booth’s carbines laid out on the sofa, along with a cartridge box, coiled rope and a monkey wrench. The monkey wrench was to be used to remove the wheels from Lincoln’s carriage, so that it could be more easily ferried across the Potomac, and the rope was to be stretched across the road to break the pursuit of any cavalry that might follow.

Surratt insisted that Lloyd hide the carbines in the house. Lloyd claims he objected and had to be persuaded by Surratt, but more likely he was a willing participant. Surratt, who had grown up in that house, knew just the place. He led Lloyd upstairs with the carbines to a sealed attic off the storeroom where the butt ends of the ceiling joists above the dining room were exposed above the attached kitchen. Surratt slipped the carbines between the joists. There they stayed, until about midnight on the night of the assassination, when Booth and Herold came to call for them. One of these same carbines was in Booth’s hands when he was shot by Boston Corbett at Garrett’s barn in Maryland.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/158617

The question remains: where exactly were the weapons before Herold took them to Surrattsville? In Herold's house? In Booth's hotelroom? In the stable behind Ford's Theatre (where, if my memory is right, the buggy was, the buggy bought by Arnold in Baltimore and brought to D.C. by Herold and O'Laughlen), or some other place? Arnold confessed (18 April 1865) "M. O’Laughlen said he took it [the trunk] to a Mr. Heard and from thence the unknown carried it to his house". If the "unknown" is the same "unknown" who was at Gauthier's on March 15 than this unknown person is Herold. Arnold said about this man, that he was: "a young man, name unknown, as I cannot remember names". And Arnold said: "We walked up together, Michael O’Laughlen, this unknown and myself were ushered [at Gauthier's] into the presence of J. Wilkes Booth who introduced me to John Surratt, Atzerodt (alias Port Tobacco) (alias) Mosby (= Powell) making in all seven persons." The seventh person was: Herold.

I believe that there has been a post some months ago relative to this subject and mention was made of the Baltimore boys rooming in D.C. and having charge of the cache for awhile before Booth turned it over to Herold on the 17th. Am I the only one who remembers this? Don't all yell at me at once!

I am willing to concede that Herold may have been in charge of them before that, but I guarantee they were kept well out of distance from his mother and sisters.

[John Fazio]

(01-19-2016 06:46 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(01-19-2016 12:58 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  Right Laurie - Michael Schein writes in his "John Surratt: The Lincoln Assassin Who Got Away" how Herold (on March 17, 1865 – the failed kidnapping of Lincoln) was dispatched to pick up Booth’s buggy and head for Surrattsville, carrying with him an arsenal of weapons that Booth had collected.

Herold hung around the [Surrattsville] tavern for a while but nobody showed up with Lincoln a prisoner. So Herold headed towards T.B., where he arrived at the hotel of John C. Thompson about eight o’clock that night. Herold needed help hauling a trunk into the barroom. This was Booth’s trunk, heavy with two carbines, a couple of double-barrel shotguns, a pistol, a knife, a sword, rope and a wrench. Herold claimed he was going duck hunting. He asked whether John Surratt had come by, and let it be known that Surratt was expected. The next morning, most likely March 18, Herold had breakfast, shot off his pistols into the air, then started back towards Surrattsville.

Surratt and Atzerodt had fled Washington and were headed towards T.B. to find Herold. The three met up on the road between T.B. and Surrattsville. According to the testimony of John M. Lloyd, Mrs. Surratt’s tenant at Surratt’s Tavern, the three men came in, took a drink, and started playing cards. Then Surratt called Lloyd into the front parlor, where he had Booth’s carbines laid out on the sofa, along with a cartridge box, coiled rope and a monkey wrench. The monkey wrench was to be used to remove the wheels from Lincoln’s carriage, so that it could be more easily ferried across the Potomac, and the rope was to be stretched across the road to break the pursuit of any cavalry that might follow.

Surratt insisted that Lloyd hide the carbines in the house. Lloyd claims he objected and had to be persuaded by Surratt, but more likely he was a willing participant. Surratt, who had grown up in that house, knew just the place. He led Lloyd upstairs with the carbines to a sealed attic off the storeroom where the butt ends of the ceiling joists above the dining room were exposed above the attached kitchen. Surratt slipped the carbines between the joists. There they stayed, until about midnight on the night of the assassination, when Booth and Herold came to call for them. One of these same carbines was in Booth’s hands when he was shot by Boston Corbett at Garrett’s barn in Maryland.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/158617

The question remains: where exactly were the weapons before Herold took them to Surrattsville? In Herold's house? In Booth's hotelroom? In the stable behind Ford's Theatre (where, if my memory is right, the buggy was, the buggy bought by Arnold in Baltimore and brought to D.C. by Herold and O'Laughlen), or some other place? Arnold confessed (18 April 1865) "M. O’Laughlen said he took it [the trunk] to a Mr. Heard and from thence the unknown carried it to his house". If the "unknown" is the same "unknown" who was at Gauthier's on March 15 than this unknown person is Herold. Arnold said about this man, that he was: "a young man, name unknown, as I cannot remember names". And Arnold said: "We walked up together, Michael O’Laughlen, this unknown and myself were ushered [at Gauthier's] into the presence of J. Wilkes Booth who introduced me to John Surratt, Atzerodt (alias Port Tobacco) (alias) Mosby (= Powell) making in all seven persons." The seventh person was: Herold.

I believe that there has been a post some months ago relative to this subject and mention was made of the Baltimore boys rooming in D.C. and having charge of the cache for awhile before Booth turned it over to Herold on the 17th. Am I the only one who remembers this? Don't all yell at me at once!

I am willing to concede that Herold may have been in charge of them before that, but I guarantee they were kept well out of distance from his mother and sisters.

Laurie:

I recall the post. My understanding is that Booth obtained the arms and other items, probably in New York, where, according to Arnold, he went often to replenish "his squandering means", because of his "riotous living and dissipation". My surmise is that part of his financing came from Confederate agents in that city and/or Belmont and his circle of Copperheads. In any case, by January, he had the arms and tools he needed and gave them to Arnold and O'Laughlen in Baltimore, who promptly shipped them to Washington. They took up residence at Mary Van Tine's boarding house, at 420 D Street, on or about February 10, so the arms and tools must have been stashed elsewhere for the time being. On the morning of March 18, after the "failed kidnapping attempt", Surratt and Atzerodt went to look for Herold. They found him between Surrattsville and T.B., with the weapons and tools, which had somehow, somewhere, come into his possession (presumably on the 17th, after they had been retrieved by Arnold and O'Laughlen as part of the Campbell Hospital episode). This encounter could not have been entirely by chance. In any case, all three then went to the tavern, where they left everything with Lloyd for later pick-up. See American Brutus, pp. 187, 188.

John

P.S. Rather than start a new post, I am going to put out a call to everyone for help on an unrelated subject. I hope no one minds my piggybacking on Kees' post. I recall reading somewhere that the Military Commission that tried the conspirators subpoeaned President Andrew Johnson, but that he refused to honor the subpoena and did not appear at the trial. I believe he used "executive privilege" to justify his refusal, which apparently was not contested by the Commission. In any case, I have looked for evidence of this, but have thus far come up empty. Does anyone have a source for this information? It is important to me, because I recently uncovered evidence that sheds light on the mystery of the card from Booth that was left in Browning's box. Knowledge of Johnson's refusal is relevant. Thank you.

[JMadonna]

(01-21-2016 04:18 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  P.S. Rather than start a new post, I am going to put out a call to everyone for help on an unrelated subject. I hope no one minds my piggybacking on Kees' post. I recall reading somewhere that the Military Commission that tried the conspirators subpoeaned President Andrew Johnson, but that he refused to honor the subpoena and did not appear at the trial. I believe he used "executive privilege" to justify his refusal, which apparently was not contested by the Commission. In any case, I have looked for evidence of this, but have thus far come up empty. Does anyone have a source for this information? It is important to me, because I recently uncovered evidence that sheds light on the mystery of the card from Booth that was left in Browning's box. Knowledge of Johnson's refusal is relevant. Thank you.

John, see Doster's notes - Threat to the Republic p.227-228

[RJNorton]

Thanks, Jerry.

In case not everyone has access to Jerry's book, this is what Doster wrote:

"Atzerodt from the time I first saw him until he was executed told the same story which he afterwards told in his confession — that he knew nothing of the assassination plot, until two hours before it was carried out, and that then he refused to have anything to do with it. Being in, as far as he was, he had to keep up appearances. His part was to kill Mr. Johnson, he said. He had ample opportunity but did not intend to do it. His defense lay mainly in showing this — that he had abundant occasion to carry out such an intention had it existed, that the President was in his room all night, with the door open. The only witness who could have shown this was the President himself. I subpoenaed him to appear and testify, but he did not come. I issued another subpoena. He then sent me word through his private Secretary that he did not intend to come.

I pressed Mr. Johnson no further, for I did not care to irritate the very man who could pardon the prisoner, and also must have known that to Atzerodt's unwillingness he was indebted for his life. The sequel showed, however, that he did not consider this."

From Lincoln and Episodes of the Civil War by William E. Doster

[L Verge]

Laurie:

I recall the post. My understanding is that Booth obtained the arms and other items, probably in New York, where, according to Arnold, he went often to replenish "his squandering means", because of his "riotous living and dissipation". My surmise is that part of his financing came from Confederate agents in that city and/or Belmont and his circle of Copperheads. In any case, by January, he had the arms and tools he needed and gave them to Arnold and O'Laughlen in Baltimore, who promptly shipped them to Washington. They took up residence at Mary Van Tine's boarding house, at 420 D Street, on or about February 10, so the arms and tools must have been stashed elsewhere for the time being. On the morning of March 18, after the "failed kidnapping attempt", Surratt and Atzerodt went to look for Herold. They found him between Surrattsville and T.B., with the weapons and tools, which had somehow, somewhere, come into his possession (presumably on the 17th, after they had been retrieved by Arnold and O'Laughlen as part of the Campbell Hospital episode). This encounter could not have been entirely by chance. In any case, all three then went to the tavern, where they left everything with Lloyd for later pick-up. See American Brutus, pp. 187, 188.

Thanks, John. Mary Van Tine's boardinghouse is what I was trying to remember as to Arnold's and O'Laughlen's home away from home. Is there any good reason to discount that the weapons and supplies were hidden in or around her boardinghouse while they were there? IMO, chances are 50/50 that Van Tine could have been in the same Confederate spirit as Mary Surratt.

[John Fazio]

(01-21-2016 09:04 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Thanks, Jerry.

In case not everyone has access to Jerry's book, this is what Doster wrote:

"Atzerodt from the time I first saw him until he was executed told the same story which he afterwards told in his confession — that he knew nothing of the assassination plot, until two hours before it was carried out, and that then he refused to have anything to do with it. Being in, as far as he was, he had to keep up appearances. His part was to kill Mr. Johnson, he said. He had ample opportunity but did not intend to do it. His defense lay mainly in showing this — that he had abundant occasion to carry out such an intention had it existed, that the President was in his room all night, with the door open. The only witness who could have shown this was the President himself. I subpoenaed him to appear and testify, but he did not come. I issued another subpoena. He then sent me word through his private Secretary that he did not intend to come.

I pressed Mr. Johnson no further, for I did not care to irritate the very man who could pardon the prisoner, and also must have known that to Atzerodt's unwillingness he was indebted for his life. The sequel showed, however, that he did not consider this."

From Lincoln and Episodes of the Civil War by William E. Doster

Jerry:

Thanks a million. This is a huge help. I'll have more to say on this matter as I develop it.

John

---

(01-21-2016 09:10 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Laurie:

I recall the post. My understanding is that Booth obtained the arms and other items, probably in New York, where, according to Arnold, he went often to replenish "his squandering means", because of his "riotous living and dissipation". My surmise is that part of his financing came from Confederate agents in that city and/or Belmont and his circle of Copperheads. In any case, by January, he had the arms and tools he needed and gave them to Arnold and O'Laughlen in Baltimore, who promptly shipped them to Washington. They took up residence at Mary Van Tine's boarding house, at 420 D Street, on or about February 10, so the arms and tools must have been stashed elsewhere for the time being. On the morning of March 18, after the "failed kidnapping attempt", Surratt and Atzerodt went to look for Herold. They found him between Surrattsville and T.B., with the weapons and tools, which had somehow, somewhere, come into his possession (presumably on the 17th, after they had been retrieved by Arnold and O'Laughlen as part of the Campbell Hospital episode). This encounter could not have been entirely by chance. In any case, all three then went to the tavern, where they left everything with Lloyd for later pick-up. See American Brutus, pp. 187, 188.

Thanks, John. Mary Van Tine's boardinghouse is what I was trying to remember as to Arnold's and O'Laughlen's home away from home. Is there any good reason to discount that the weapons and supplies were hidden in or around her boardinghouse while they were there? IMO, chances are 50/50 that Van Tine could have been in the same Confederate spirit as Mary Surratt.

Laurie:

A very good surmise, both as to where the weapons and tools were stashed and as to Ms. Van Tine's sympathies. It sticks in my mind, however, that something was said by someone, somewhere, about O'Laughlen having deposited the goods with a friend. I'll see if I can find it, but someone else may already be familiar with the reference.

John

---

(01-21-2016 08:44 AM)JMadonna Wrote:  

(01-21-2016 04:18 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  P.S. Rather than start a new post, I am going to put out a call to everyone for help on an unrelated subject. I hope no one minds my piggybacking on Kees' post. I recall reading somewhere that the Military Commission that tried the conspirators subpoeaned President Andrew Johnson, but that he refused to honor the subpoena and did not appear at the trial. I believe he used "executive privilege" to justify his refusal, which apparently was not contested by the Commission. In any case, I have looked for evidence of this, but have thus far come up empty. Does anyone have a source for this information? It is important to me, because I recently uncovered evidence that sheds light on the mystery of the card from Booth that was left in Browning's box. Knowledge of Johnson's refusal is relevant. Thank you.

John, see Doster's notes - Threat to the Republic p.227-228

Jerry:

I plugged this into the wrong socket earlier.

Thanks a million. This is a huge help. I will have more to say about this matter as I develop it.

John

[loetar44]

I just saw a sample of “The Lincoln Assassination, the Evidence”, edited by William C. Edwards and Edward Steers Jr., published by the University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago in 2009, ISBN 978-0-252-03368-1. It has on page 550 a “List of prisoners held April 27, 1865”, on pages 551-53 a “List of prisoners committed since April 13, 1865” and on pages 1370-71 a “List of prisoners confined in Old Capitol Prison, June 1, 1865”. Does someone in this forum know what exactly is in these lists? Very curious about that.

http://samples.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/97..._90617.pdf

[Susan Higginbotham]

(01-25-2016 05:13 AM)loetar44 Wrote:  I just saw a sample of “The Lincoln Assassination, the Evidence”, edited by William C. Edwards and Edward Steers Jr., published by the University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago in 2009, ISBN 978-0-252-03368-1. It has on page 550 a “List of prisoners held April 27, 1865”, on pages 551-53 a “List of prisoners committed since April 13, 1865” and on pages 1370-71 a “List of prisoners confined in Old Capitol Prison, June 1, 1865”. Does someone in this forum know what exactly is in these lists? Very curious about that.

http://samples.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/97..._90617.pdf

They're lists of people arrested and confined by orders of the Department of Washington, and lists of those being held in Old Capitol Prison, with their arrest dates and accompanying comments. If there's a specific person(s) you're interested in, I can check for you.