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L Verge · (This post was last modified: 05-16-2015 03:26 PM by L Verge.)

(05-16-2015 10:31 AM)Craig Hipkins Wrote: It is my unprofessional but personal belief that terms like "Insane," "Schizophrenia," "Narcissistic" and others that describe human frailties and actions are all relative terms. The norms of society dictate what is accepted behavior in that culture. Everyone is subject to moments of insanity or narcissism. This is due to each individuals unique experiences from childhood, through adolescence and adulthood.
Someone once said "My reality is not your reality." To John Wilkes Booth his reality was determined by the environment and the associations that he had been born into. Booth's motive for killing President Lincoln has been the subject of debate for over 150 years now. The only way to look at it honestly is to place it in context to the time in which it happened. Analyzing it from a 21st century perspective will give a spurious sense of reality as this most certainly will lead to a subjective conclusion.

Craig

Amen.

(05-16-2015 10:37 AM)Jenny Wrote: See where you are coming from for sure, Craig.

I think we are getting confused on "motive" versus "mental health." They are not the same. I've been going on about mental health because that was the original topic of the thread (I think).

Going to shut up and just watch the thread for a while - I feel like I am making things confusing (I am probably not on the same page).

You are definitely on the right page, Jenny, and have made excellent points. I think many historians see Booth as having no motive - just being driven by a mental unbalance. Whether it was to decapitate the Union, avenge the South, or rid the country of a perceived despot, Booth and many others definitely had a motive. And that motive led to what we Monday-morning-quarterback as a "crazy" act.

Jenny · 05-16-2015, 05:54 PM

Quote:You are definitely on the right page, Jenny, and have made excellent points. I think many historians see Booth as having no motive - just being driven by a mental unbalance. Whether it was to decapitate the Union, avenge the South, or rid the country of a perceived despot, Booth and many others definitely had a motive. And that motive led to what we Monday-morning-quarterback as a "crazy" act.

Thank you, Laurie. Now that you put it that way, I can see why a lot of Boothies would be wary of anyone bringing up any sort of mental issue regarding JWB. I promise that this isn't the case here. I agree 110% that Booth had his motives and didn't do what he did just because he was some "madman."

Thomas Thorne · 05-16-2015, 06:55 PM

JWB was neither a genius,insane or suffered from any significant mental illness.

I resist the modern tendency to declare horrible deeds I strongly deplore to be acts of madness. The careless throwing out of accusations of mental illness without rigorous examination of the facts reinforces our natural inclination to be smug about the correctness of our own beliefs. It also impedes our efforts to understand-which should not be confused with approval-the actions of people from societies whose beliefs were very different from our own.

Tom
Tom

Wild Bill · 05-16-2015, 07:31 PM

Amen, Tom

Juan Marrero · 05-16-2015, 08:09 PM

I can see why a lot of Boothies would be wary of anyone bringing up any sort of mental issue regarding JWB. I promise that this isn't the case here. I agree 110% that Booth had his motives and didn't do what he did just because he was some "madman."
[/quote]

Jenny, I think your are absolutely on the right page. It is difficult to unknot the question of mental health and motive. What prompted my original post was the picture that emerged of JWB from reading "Fortune's Fool." Clearly, his feelings about Lincoln, slavery and the South were shared by 100,000s of people. Yet, it was Booth who effected the murderous act. It seemed from the book that he was a brilliant, charming, sometimes cruel, sometimes empathetic, adrenalin-driven individual who was all things some of the times.

What kind of man abstains from military service so as not to hurt his mother then commits an act that would logically lead to his being hanged or killed before capture--not to mention bringing Mary Ann the ignominy of being the "assassin's mother". Even if he thought he would be lionized in the South, he still needed to reckon with the fact that his family lived in New York at the time of the murder.

He had a grandiose vision of himself that when meshed with his politics made him the most interesting (and successful) of presidential murderers. Oswald had this grandiose vision too, but there was nothing grand about him. Oswald did not walk away from theatrical acclaim and fortune to kill a president.

I wonder what Ayn Rand thought of JWB, if she did at all.. She lionized figures who acted grandly because they were so above the average run of mankind. The normal rules did not apply to such types. I think JWB saw himself that way. But is that a diagnosable mental health issue or a run-away ego supercharged with poisonous politics?

Jenny · (This post was last modified: 05-16-2015 09:00 PM by Jenny.)

(05-16-2015 06:55 PM)Thomas Thorne Wrote: JWB was neither a genius,insane or suffered from any significant mental illness.

I resist the modern tendency to declare horrible deeds I strongly deplore to be acts of madness. The careless throwing out of accusations of mental illness without rigorous examination of the facts reinforces our natural inclination to be smug about the correctness of our own beliefs.

I think most of us agree that no one here is throwing out careless accusations of madness. AGAIN, no one is trying to say that Booth was a complete nut job who thought as he did and carried out the actions he did all because he might have had one form or another of a mental disorder. That would be ridiculous. I think it's well established that he was NOT simply driven by a mental imbalance.

Clearly I can't agree that it was utterly impossible that he didn't have some form of mental illness though. Not after all I've read about the man and his family , especially descriptions from his contemporaries, and obviously I am not alone in my suspicions or this thread would not have been started. It's pretty arrogant to imply as a fact that Booth did not suffer from any significant mental illness when it is honestly possible he *might* have.

Obviously I am wasting my breath to a lot of folks here, but that's okay with me.

(05-16-2015 08:09 PM)Juan Marrero Wrote: Jenny, I think your are absolutely on the right page. It is difficult to unknot the question of mental health and motive. What prompted my original post was the picture that emerged of JWB from reading "Fortune's Fool." Clearly, his feelings about Lincoln, slavery and the South were shared by 100,000s of people. Yet, it was Booth who effected the murderous act. It seemed from the book that he was a brilliant, charming, sometimes cruel, sometimes empathetic, adrenalin-driven individual who was all things some of the times.

What kind of man abstains from military service so as not to hurt his mother then commits an act that would logically lead to his being hanged or killed before capture--not to mention bringing Mary Ann the ignominy of being the "assassin's mother". Even if he thought he would be lionized in the South, he still needed to reckon with the fact that his family lived in New York at the time of the murder.

He had a grandiose vision of himself that when meshed with his politics made him the most interesting (and successful) of presidential murderers. Oswald had this grandiose vision too, but there was nothing grand about him. Oswald did not walk away from theatrical acclaim and fortune to kill a president.

I wonder what Ayn Rand thought of JWB, if she did at all.. She lionized figures who acted grandly because they were so above the average run of mankind. The normal rules did not apply to such types. I think JWB saw himself that way. But is that a diagnosable mental health issue or a run-away ego supercharged with poisonous politics?

I don't know the answer to that last question, but this is a wonderful post, Juan. Wink

Rick Smith · 05-18-2015, 11:12 AM

Tom & Bill's assessments are well grounded.

It is interesting that many people I know think Booth was insane and or evil because he destroyed Lincoln instead of worshiping him.

Jenny · (This post was last modified: 05-19-2015 01:17 AM by Jenny.)

(05-18-2015 11:12 AM)Rick Smith Wrote: Tom & Bill's assessments are well grounded.

I actually agree, Rick. I really do see where they are coming from - I am sure they both have seen plenty of historians blowing off Booth's motives and actions by calling him a nutcase. And I get the feeling that I look about as brainless as the historians I just mentioned. Sad

That's something I absolutely do NOT want and that I am not at all trying to imply. Right now I am pretty embarrassed because obviously I have been unsuccessful in trying to get what I mean across clearly.

The entire thing is ALL speculation anyway as I keep admitting.

Mental heath, especially mental illness and disorders, is something I have studied for years (was trying to get my degree in Psychology in college) so I am passionate about it. However I also know that terms like "mental illness" are still highly stigmatized and misunderstood even in this day and age; I know people hear "mental illness," and immediately the image of someone in a straight jacket in a padded room at a mental ward comes into their minds when the true meaning of a "mental illness" is very broad and so much more complicated than just dealing with an utter lunatic as so many still believe.

I am just going to drop the subject for good now.

(05-18-2015 11:12 AM)Rick Smith Wrote: It is interesting that many people I know think Booth was insane and or evil because he destroyed Lincoln instead of worshiping him.

Amen to that.

Rick Smith · 05-19-2015, 08:24 AM

Jenny, There is nothing for you to feel embarrassed over.

brtmchl · 05-19-2015, 07:37 PM

"We all go a little mad sometimes." - Norman Bates

Personally, I agree with Wild Bill. I think Booth was completely sane. Fighting for a cause (right or wrong) that he gave himself completely to. I read earlier in this same thread that someone posted having a soft spot for John Brown. I believe JWB was present at Brown's execution and later remarked how much he admired John Brown. Not for what he was doing, Booth disagreed in Brown's motives, but he admired his will and passion to carry out what he believed in.

I personally don't think mental illness plagued Booth. I agree that narcissism and his penchant for drama played a huge role in HOW he carried out his plot.

LincolnToddFan · 05-19-2015, 09:34 PM

(05-16-2015 08:09 PM)Juan Marrero Wrote: I can see why a lot of Boothies would be wary of anyone bringing up any sort of mental issue regarding JWB. I promise that this isn't the case here. I agree 110% that Booth had his motives and didn't do what he did just because he was some "madman."

Jenny, I think your are absolutely on the right page. It is difficult to unknot the question of mental health and motive. What prompted my original post was the picture that emerged of JWB from reading "Fortune's Fool." Clearly, his feelings about Lincoln, slavery and the South were shared by 100,000s of people. Yet, it was Booth who effected the murderous act. It seemed from the book that he was a brilliant, charming, sometimes cruel, sometimes empathetic, adrenalin-driven individual who was all things some of the times.

.What kind of man abstains from military service so as not to hurt his mother then commits an act that would logically lead to his being hanged or killed before capture--not to mention bringing Mary Ann the ignominy of being the "assassin's mother". Even if he thought he would be lionized in the South, he still needed to reckon with the fact that his family lived in New York at the time of the murder

He had a grandiose vision of himself that when meshed with his politics made him the most interesting (and successful) of presidential murderers. Oswald had this grandiose vision too, but there was nothing grand about him. Oswald did not walk away from theatrical acclaim and fortune to kill a president.

I wonder what Ayn Rand thought of JWB, if she did at all.. She lionized figures who acted grandly because they were so above the average run of mankind. The normal rules did not apply to such types. I think JWB saw himself that way. But is that a diagnosable mental health issue or a run-away ego supercharged with poisonous politics?
[/quote]

Great post, which you are becoming known for around here. I think I will start calling you WonderJuan! Wink

JMadonna · 05-20-2015, 07:03 AM

Can I shift gears for a minute to ask a question? Does anyone know how Booth beat the draft? Is there any record that he hired a substitute or paid the $300? Just curious.

Juan Marrero · 05-20-2015, 07:52 AM

Thank you, LincolnToddFan, that is very generous.

It is a real pleasure to be in communication with such a great group of folks who share a passionate interest in the most crucial half-decade of American history and in the Greatest American!

Wild Bill · 05-20-2015, 09:31 AM

I could be wrong, but I do not think Booth was ever called up. Nor was John Surratt, Jr.

L Verge · 05-20-2015, 09:49 AM

(05-20-2015 09:31 AM)Wild Bill Wrote: I could be wrong, but I do not think Booth was ever called up. Nor was John Surratt, Jr.

If Booth had ever faced the draft, surely some researcher/author would have mentioned it. I suspect that he traveled so much that he couldn't be served. The same may be true of John, Jr. Does anyone know exactly how draft notices were served on citizens during the war?