Most important person in Lincoln's life

[Juan Marrero]

Admitting my tendency to psychoanlyze, I nevertheless thought it would be interesting to speculate about whom was the single most influential person in forming Lincoln's character and outlook.

Obvious candidates would be Nancy and Thomas, Mary, Ann Rutledge, his stepmother Sarah, and even Shakespeare.

My sense is that it was Nancy Hanks Lincoln. His statements to Herndon suggest that he thought that his intelligence came from her side of his family, implying perhaps that Thomas was the less impressive parent. Her early death gave him a tragic, fatalisitic view of life, marked by a dificulty in accepting the "cheap grace" of organized religion. It does not seem that Thomas was a particulary sentimental or affectionate parent (even by the standards of the day) so Nancy's death may have exposed Abraham and his sister to a harsher childhood than if she had lived. This may have made him even more inclined to care about the weak than he was already naturally inclined.

In my limited observed experience, it seems that people who lose a mother early on are particularly impacted by the loss. A sensitive person like Lincoln would have been deeply affected.

There is the old saw that people tend to marry someone who reminds them of their distaff parent. Mary Lincoln does not support that theory; she, in fact, suggests the antithesis of the little we know about Nancy.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I agree with you on his family (and I'd add his sister!), but I personally think Ann Rutledge's total, long-lasting influence is much overestimated. Many people have a first-love experience which influence them for that more or less brief period in their life, but not forever when they find a new, especially lifelong partner. I think Mary not only had a much longer but also a supportive influence on his career, thus on his life. And she bore his children.
I think his admiration for Henry Clay also shaped him, at least his career and political thinking and ideals for a long time, and thus his way in life.

As for forming someone's character - overall I think a lot is just inherent (likewise is "her intelligence came from her side of his family" - inherited "influence"). I know twins (now in their sixties) who grew up doing everything together and were treated the same by their parents. Still they developed different values in life and very different character traits. Actually one isn't treating the other, who's a very sensitive person, very nicely.

[Wild Bill]

I like the choice of Henry Clay for his political ideas, but I believe the Mary Todd Lincoln aces all out in the end, like her or not. I cannot remember where, and I may be totally wrong, but I swear I read somewhere that she was the real anti-slavery person in the family. She would not be the first person from a slave-holding family to go that route. I believe that she gets credit for a lot of his ambition and his drive for the presidency, too. But I admit to being out my ken here.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(05-18-2015 02:58 PM)Wild Bill Wrote:  I cannot remember where, and I may be totally wrong, but I swear I read somewhere that she was the real anti-slavery person in the family. She would not be the first person from a slave-holding family to go that route. I believe that she gets credit for a lot of his ambition and his drive for the presidency, too. But I admit to being out my ken here.

As for her being the family's real anti-slaverite, Brian Diego's article in "The Mary Lincoln Enigma" pretty much claims this. I need to re-read it to say whether a comparison and ranking is made, but that she was strongly against slavery and had been from childhood on is pointed out very well.

[LincolnToddFan]

I will just give Wild Bill and Eva my posting proxy here. You both virtually got into my head and took the words out.

For better(or for much worse according to some historians)Mary Ann Todd changed Lincoln's life. If he had not approached her that night at that ball at the home of her brother-in-law, the powerful connected Ninian Edwards, pleading his wish to dance with her in the "worst way" his life-politically and personally-might have been much different. Not only his life, but American history as we know it would be vastly different.

She gave him a true family. One could argue that the Todds, as much trouble as they caused him, were more family to him than the Hanks ever were. And as Eva pointed out it, is Mary who bore the sons that gave him so much joy in their brief time with him.

THANKS EVA, AND THANKS WILD BILL!, and thanks JUAN for an excellent topic!

[Eva Elisabeth]

One very trivial example of Mary's influence - when her husband once noriced that "those posies on your dress are the color of your eyes,’ Mary said to her half-sister Emilie Todd Helm: "You see, Emilie, I am training my husband to see color. I do not think he knew pink from blue when I married him."

Still the limit of her "external" influence began with the shirt sleeves and carpet slippers, and if it came to influence his thinking and mind once he had made it up, Mary herself claimed no one could rule him.

As for politics and his career, one example of Mary's influence, however to rate, comes to my mind. Lincoln was tempted first to accept the offer of the governorship of the Oregon territory (the salary was $ 3,000 a year), but then decided to accept if Mary consented to go. She refused and “put her foot down about moving”. (Nevertheless, Lincoln also knew a Whig would hardy have been chosen for Congress if Oregon had been admitted to the Union.) According to Noah Brooks, Mary reminded him during his presidency that she had kept him from “throwing himself away” by accepting the governorship of Oregon.

[Juan Marrero]

Lincoln was tempted first to accept the offer of the governorship of the Oregon territory (the salary was $ 3,000 a year), but then decided to accept if Mary consented to go. She refused and “put her foot down about moving”.

Yes, that is probably the single greatest contribution to the U.S. by a (future) first lady. I wonder, nonetheless, if the Lincolns would have been personally happier if they had gone to the Far West.

I agree with all of you that Mary most influenced his life, yet I still think that Nancy Hanks marked his character most. I suspect that the melancholy that was the engine of his compassion came from his mother's tragic and sudden death. Lincoln as the American Job begins with his mother's death, I believe. Being practically left alone in the woods with his younger sister while his father went "courting" must have been traumatic.

[Gene C]

Dennis Hanks, who was about 19 years old at the time, was also with Abraham, age 9, and Sara, age 11. There were also neighbors who probably were aware of the situation who could check in on them from time to time. A tough time for sure, but the three of them were probably pretty capable and their material needs were few.

[Angela]

What a great topic!

I would like to add to the growing list David Davis who met Lincoln right after his return from his time in congress and they quickly developed a deep and lasting friendship.
While from very different backgrounds, Lincoln and Davis spend a lot of time together on the 8th judicial circuit and it was during that time that Lincoln really developed as a politician as well as a lawyer.

Davis was known to appoint Lincoln to sit in as judge in Davis’ absence and he became a very close counselor during Lincoln’s later political campaigns…all the way to his nomination and election for President.
Given Lincoln’s track record in Congress and his subsequent development, I can’t help but speculate that it was Davis who taught Lincoln some tricks of the trade.

As for Mary Lincoln (and I have to apologize in advance for being the one with the unpopular opinion), I completely fail to see how she influenced his character. She might have influenced some of his decisions (which I’d think normal in a marriage) as for example the move to Oregon. But both, the biography of Nicolay and Hay as well as Noah Brooks writings, indicate that she simply did not want to move to “the wilderness”.

Her attempts to influence his political views (e.g. Seward, Grant) were fruitless as was her idea of dressing him up.
He was known to greet visitors in socks back in Springfield and found looking just like this when greeting visitors as President. His string-fixed glasses as well as his trademark clothing style indicate the same. They might have agreed on certain topics – like on how to raise children – but I don’t think he needed much character building on this end.
He never caught up on her lifestyle ("Mrs. President") but rather enjoyed being one of the many without much fanfare made about his person.

And - and this is TOTALLY tongue in cheek! - while Mrs. Lincoln might have taught him "to see color", Frederick Douglass sure pointed out how much he enjoyed that Lincoln seemed to have forgotten it when talking to him.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Angela, please allow me to remark I've never said nor believe Mary influenced her husband's character. (As I said I believe most character traits are first of all inherent anyway.) Also I myself in my last post said how limited in the end her influence on his attire was. As for Oregon, I guess she didn't want to go into wilderness because she saw no glorious future there (if her husband hadn't she wouldn't have had either), which was obvious. Also I think he seriously feared the same.
As for his legal career, J. T. Stuart encouraged him to study law.

[87books]

(05-19-2015 11:31 AM)Angela Wrote:  What a great topic!

I agree. What a delight to read!

(05-19-2015 11:31 AM)Angela Wrote:  ... while Mrs. Lincoln might have taught him "to see color", Frederick Douglass sure pointed out how much he enjoyed that Lincoln seemed to have forgotten it when talking to him.

This made me laugh. Brilliant.

As for the topic at hand: in the end, it's hard to quantify just how much someone has influenced another person. People are a complex construction of ideas that they have picked up along the ride. For instance: if Mary Todd influenced his ambitions, his anti-slavery, his manners, weren't they simply nudges in order to (re)direct what was already present?

Also, having said that, I started thinking about Thomas Lincoln, his dad, who made Abraham work so much that for the rest of his life he felt he had been, in his youth, a slave (by having to give the money he'd earned to his dad). One of Lincoln's most important ideas was that people deserved what they had worked for, that they earned it "by the sweat of their brow." (Or maybe that was not so much his dad as the society he lived in.)

[Eva Elisabeth]

(05-19-2015 12:54 PM)87books Wrote:  As for the topic at hand: in the end, it's hard to quantify just how much someone has influenced another person. People are a complex construction of ideas that they have picked up along the ride. For instance: if Mary Todd influenced his ambitions, his anti-slavery, his manners, weren't they simply nudges in order to (re)direct what was already present?

That's exactly what I've several times tried to point out (in general, not just Mary-related.)

[Angela]

(05-19-2015 12:45 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Angela, please allow me to remark I've never said nor believe Mary influenced her husband's character.

Hi Eva! I did not respond to your particular comment, just to Mary Lincoln's general mention in this thread.

If anything, I think that she is proof how resilient he was to being influenced by others.

(05-19-2015 12:45 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  As for his legal career, J. T. Stuart encouraged him to study law.

I wasn't talking about who inspired him to study law - Stuart was much earlier than the timeline I pointed out.
David Davis and Lincoln met not until the mid 40's as far as I am aware.
But if you go through Lincoln's legal cases - the cases he took, the way he organized himself and the way he argued - there is great development after they met and started working closely together.
As I said, it is pure speculation on my part, but the way Davis and Lincoln grew close during that time made me think that Davis made quite a difference in Lincoln's career. Politically as well as a lawyer.

@Peter - GREAT point about his father! From his own writing it appears as if Lincoln has studied his father very closely and was influenced by his way of life a great deal.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(05-19-2015 01:07 PM)Angela Wrote:  

(05-19-2015 12:45 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Angela, please allow me to remark I've never said nor believe Mary influenced her husband's character.

Hi Eva! I did not respond to your particular comment, just to Mary Lincoln's general mention in this thread.

If anything, I think that she is proof how resilient he was to being influenced by others.

(05-19-2015 12:45 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  As for his legal career, J. T. Stuart encouraged him to study law.

I wasn't talking about who inspired him to study law - Stuart was much earlier than the timeline I pointed out.

Hi Angela, please excuse me for borrowing your words - I did not respond to your particular comment, just wanted to add Steward. A. L. at that time (please correct me if I remember incorrectly) also considered becoming a blacksmith.

[Angela]

Eva, I suppose at the time and considering his financial situation, Lincoln probably considered every occupation under the earth!
And I apologize for the misunderstanding - reading my name had me confused you were addressing me directly in that point as well.