words

[loetar44]

Does anyone know when and where Abraham Lincoln spoke these words: "Mary you are younger than myself. You will survive me. When I am gone, lay my remains in some quiet place like this."

Thanks as usual.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Kees, the source is Ida Tarbell: "The Life of Abraham Lincoln", vol. II, pp.231-232.

Abraham Lincoln, when, while at City Point in 1865, he drove one day with Mary along the banks of the James River and they passed a country graveyard which Mary described as a "retired place...shaded by trees...so attractive and quiet that we stopped the carriage and walked through it", he said: "Mary, you are younger than I, you will survive me. When I'm gone, lay my remains in some quiet place like this."

[STS Lincolnite]

(01-26-2015 05:57 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Kees, the source is Ida Tarbell: "The Life of Abraham Lincoln", vol. II, pp.231-232.

Abraham Lincoln, when, while at City Point in 1865, he drove one day with Mary along the banks of the James River and they passed a country graveyard which Mary described as a "retired place...shaded by trees...so attractive and quiet that we stopped the carriage and walked through it", he said: "Mary, you are younger than I, you will survive me. When I'm gone, lay my remains in some quiet place like this."

I know I have read this before. Was this orginally from a letter that Mary wrote? What is the source that Tarbell uses?

[Eva Elisabeth]

The story is also in "20 Days". I recently "dug it out" for a post here:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...y#pid40549
...and it looks like it originally was from a letter Mary wrote. I will try to find out (but not tonight, it's already past midnight here). Maybe someone else knows either.

[LincolnMan]

I have heard that this statement by Mr. Lincoln is the reason why Mary would not allow his final resting place to be in Washington or any other location that didn't fit what he had said

[LincolnToddFan]

Yes Bill, you are right. That is precisely the reason that MTL fought so hard to have her husband interred at Oak Ridge rather than the Mather Block in the center of Springfield.

What a coincidence..... Last night I was watching the final episode of Ken Burns' "The Civil War" on dvd, and this very incident is referenced in "The Better Angels of Our Nature" as having taken place on Saturday April8th 1865. The President and Mrs. Lincoln were taking a quiet drive along the James River and came upon a small rural cemetery. Mrs Lincoln said that she and her husband stopped their carriage and were strolling through the graveyard studying the headstones when AL, moved by the peace and beauty of the place, made his remark.

I am pretty certain that this incident is written about by MTL in the compilation of her letters, thanks Eva for confirming it.

[RJNorton]

(01-26-2015 05:59 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  What is the source that Tarbell uses?

Although this sounds like something Mary may have written, I believe the actual source is not in writing. It came out of a conversation Mary had with Isaac Arnold in October 1874. Arnold then included what Mary told him in his Lincoln biography. I have a paperback reprint of Arnold's book, and the quote and footnote are on p. 435. Mary told Arnold that the quote came during a carriage ride the Lincolns took along the banks of the James River. This was during the visit to City Point. During the carriage ride the couple came upon an old country graveyard, shaded with trees. The Lincolns disembarked from the carriage and walked through the quiet graveyard. During this walk Lincoln spoke the words Kees asked about. Tarbell credited Arnold's account as the source in her book.

[loetar44]

Thanks to you all! Again I realize what an outstanding symposium this is! It's really the best I've ever seen. I thought for some strange reason that AL spoke these words during the dedication of the Oak Ridge Cemetery on May 24, 1860. The Mayor of Springfield and members of the City Council, with a large concourse of citizens, then participated in the imposing ceremonies that took place. But “Oak Ridge Cemetery : It’s History and Improvements....” (published 1879) did not mention that Lincoln and Mary were there. Thanks to you all my question is resolved and now I can again enjoy a good night rest !

[LincolnMan]

Is there any source that indicates Lincoln ever visited Oak Ridge?

[davg2000]

Findagrave, in its article about Oak Ridge, says this: "It was reported that Abraham Lincoln and his wife were present at the dedication of the cemetery" on May 24, 1860. The article about Oak Ridge in SangamonLink says that "it’s reasonable to think that, although there’s no proof of their attendance, Abraham and Mary Lincoln were part of the dedication crowd." However, this piece does go on to detail how busy Lincoln was during the week of May 24. So....? I think the general sense is that he and Mary were there. It would be interesting to know if she specified Oak Ridge when she denied the efforts to have her husband placed in a tomb in Springfield's Mather Block.

[RJNorton]

Thanks, Dave. One book I have - Ralph Gary's Following in Lincoln's Footsteps - says, "The Lincolns had admired the beauty of the cemetery when it was dedicated in 1860." Gary's book is not footnoted, so I don't know the source for what he writes.

[loetar44]

I now recall why I thought that Abraham Lincoln spoke the words when he was at the dedication ceremony of Oak Ridge.

The dedication ceremonies were held on May 24, 1860, with as highlight the speech of Lincoln’s friend and former mayor of Springfield James C. Conkling, delivering the key note address. The day of the dedication was a BIG event. It was almost like a holiday for Springfield. Businesses were closed and schools were let out so as many people as possible could attend the ceremony. We know that Lincoln was extremely busy in May 1860. He won the Republican presidential nomination less than a week earlier than the dedication, and Thurlow Weed spoke in private in Springfield with Lincoln on the very same day as the dedication. So, we know that Lincoln was in Springfield that day. We also know that Lincoln also kept close contact with his friends and political contacts, so maybe he went indeed to Oak Ridge, on invitation or simply because he did not want to disappoint his friend (Conkling).

Edward J. Russo / Curtis R. Mann write in “Oak Ridge Cemetery” (p. 18): “Abraham Lincoln is believed to have attended the dedication of Oak Ridge Cemetery in 1860 where he would have heard former mayor James Conkling reflect, ‘When the firful dream of life is over … when man has run his allotted courses and fulfilled his destiny on the earth, here he may find a resting place.” Did Lincoln hear these words? And was he impressed by these words?

Mary Lincoln changed her mind, for reasons that have never been clearly determined. Why did she chose Springfield as the burial place for her assassinated husband? Were it the words of Lincoln himself (spoken to her at the carriage ride along the James River on April 18, 1865)? Or, were it the words of Conkling (spoken at the dedication on May 24, 1860)?

At a ceremony held May 24, 2014, the 154th anniversary of the cemetery’s dedication, Springfield lawyer/historian Richard Hart spoke: “’How solemn, how impressive the scene!’ These are the words spoken by former Springfield Mayor James C. Conkling 154 years ago today at the May 24, 1860 dedication of Oak Ridge Cemetery. Abraham and Mary Lincoln were present (!!!) and heard these words. Later, Mary remembered Mr. Lincoln saying at the time that he wanted to be buried in this quiet place, Oak Ridge Cemetery.” Did Abraham Lincoln explicitly say to Mary: “I want to be buried at Oak Ridge ?”

In the letter(s) Mary wrote to Oglesby, she never declared why she wanted Oak Ridge as burial place. She only wrote that she wanted that “…in accordance with my oft expressed wishes”. That leaves now two questions: (1) why exactly did Mary chose for Oak Ridge, and (2) were the Lincolns indeed at Oak Ridge at the dedication on May 24, 1860?

In Hart's speecht is also the following sentence: "Here to these sacred grounds the remains of Abraham Lincoln were brought on May 4, 1865, just short of five years from the May 24, 1860 dedication that he and Mary HAD ATTENDED"). Hart's speech is here:

http://www.sangamonhistory.org/blog/3009343

[RJNorton]

Hi Kees. As far as I know there is no specific source for what Richard E. Hart said. Have you been able to determine where he received that information? At this point I lean to Arnold's discussion with Mary in 1874 regarding Abraham's wishes to be buried "in some quiet place like this." (in other words...like the quaint, rural cemetery along the James River.) What I am saying is that I think we have a specific, footnoted source for the "James River" discussion, but we have no specific, footnoted source for Lincoln's reaction to Conkling's speech. I would think the 1865 conversation would most likely be more fresh in her mind than what may have been said in 1860. So I am currently thinking Mary was probably going by what Abraham told her in 1865 rather than something he might have said in 1860. I realize we are in somewhat of a "gray area" here when we try to decide for certain why Mary was so adamant about Oak Ridge. Another influencing factor, according to Jean Baker, was that all of Mary's Springfield relatives had already purchased lots at Oak Ridge.

[davg2000]

Hi, Roger. I didn't know that Mary's relatives had purchased plots at Oak Ridge. Something else that might be relevant--Eddie Lincoln, who died February 1, 1850, and was buried in Springfield's Hutchinson Cemetery, located a few blocks from where Springfield's fathers wanted to put AL. Eddie was exhumed and re-buried in Oak Ridge with his father on May 1, 1865. By 1874, Hutchinson was no longer taking burials, and most of its inhabitants were being removed to Oak Ridge. Forty-one years later, Hutchinson became the site for Springfield High School. One wonders if Mary had any knowledge that Hutchinson was close to refusing additional burials and that Springfield would eventually re-locate those buried there to Oak Ridge. So, for her to keep husband and son together, Oak Ridge became the "quiet place"?

(01-28-2015 05:44 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Hi Kees. As far as I know there is no specific source for what Richard E. Hart said. Have you been able to determine where he received that information? At this point I lean to Arnold's discussion with Mary in 1874 regarding Abraham's wishes to be buried "in some quiet place like this." (in other words...like the quaint, rural cemetery along the James River.) What I am saying is that I think we have a specific, footnoted source for the "James River" discussion, but we have no specific, footnoted source for Lincoln's reaction to Conkling's speech. I would think the 1865 conversation would most likely be more fresh in her mind than what may have been said in 1860. So I am currently thinking Mary was probably going by what Abraham told her in 1865 rather than something he might have said in 1860. I realize we are in somewhat of a "gray area" here when we try to decide for certain why Mary was so adamant about Oak Ridge. Another influencing factor, according to Jean Baker, was that all of Mary's Springfield relatives had already purchased lots at Oak Ridge.

[RJNorton]

Hi Dave. IMO what you said about Hutchinson Cemetery makes a lot of sense. And, yes, that is what Jean Baker writes in her bio of Mary. She says that the William Wallaces, the John Todds, the John Todd Stuarts, the Ninian Edwardses, and the Clark Smiths had all purchased plots at Oak Ridge by 1865.

From the book Oak Ridge Cemetery here is an advertisement from John Hutchinson in 1860: