Incident at an Antique Store

[LincolnMan]

I was having a conversation with the owner of the antique store I was visiting. I noticed a lady out of the corner of my eye apparently listening in on the talk. I didn't think anything about it. The owner asked me why I admired Abraham Lincoln. I gave him my reasons. The lady then left it in a huff. It was also my time to leave. As I was getting into my vehicle I noticed her getting into hers. She had a large confederate battle flag windown sticker on the back window of her truck. I guess she took offense to the mere mention of my admiration of Lincoln. I say that "I guess" because I don't really know what her problem was. We live in a day and age where no one can have an opinion without offending someone. I wouldn't have care if she was talking to someone about her admiration for Jefferson Davis- why should she be bothered by my choice to admire Lincoln?

[LincolnToddFan]

[We live in a day and age where no one can have an opinion without offending someone. ]//

Bill, you are exactly right unfortunately. But you have as much right to like and admire who ever you want for whatever reason.

The Civil War is one of those subjects that even now, 150 years later excites passionate opinion and invective on both sides. It will always be that way, I'm afraid. Admiration for and interest in President Lincoln was inculcated in me from earliest childhood,and is as natural as breathing.

But there are other people who see him as a tyrant and a destroyer of liberty. I keep my own views, try to see the other side, and don't take any of it personally.

[LincolnMan]

Yes- agree. We'll said! Funny thing- I said nothing offensive at all. It seems she to offense to the mere fact that I admired Lincoln.

[L Verge]

It is unfortunate that this still goes on, Bill; but on the other side of the coin, those who revere their Southern heritage get much the same reaction. In some areas, she would have had the back window of her truck smashed out because of that decal. I wish people had as much passion about all of American history as they do over the issue of North vs. South of 150 years ago.

[Rsmyth]

The problem may be image and perception rather than heritage. In Pennsylvania where I live the only time we see the stars and bars displayed is on the back window of a pickup truck along with a gun rack. The driver being a young white male termed a redneck. If college history professions had a sticker on their Volvo, it might have a different significance. In Germany the nazi flag in now verboten. Yet in this country Americans of German heritage show their pride by placing a decal on their bumper with Germany on it. Maybe we could come up with a decal that symbolizes southern pride that does not include the flag. People could then show their pride without offending others.

[LincolnMan]

(08-07-2014 08:52 AM)Rsmyth Wrote:  The problem may be image and perception rather than heritage. In Pennsylvania where I live the only time we see the stars and bars displayed is on the back window of a pickup truck along with a gun rack. The driver being a young white male termed a redneck. If college history professions had a sticker on their Volvo, it might have a different significance. In Germany the nazi flag in now verboten. Yet in this country Americans of German heritage show their pride by placing a decal on their bumper with Germany on it. Maybe we could come up with a decal that symbolizes southern pride that does not include the flag. People could then show their pride without offending others.

That is an excellent idea- and one that I have never heard before. Has anyone else?

[Wild Bill]

With apologies to Roger Norton, who has seen all this before. . . . I just could not resist:

Well, well, well, dog my cats and please pass the grits and greens! Someone is bucking for the Harry Reid award for stereotypical, condescending, politically-correct language. I guess it all depends on whose ox is getting gored?

You mean to tell me that the Yankees won the war? Mind ‘splaining why it took to 1964 until they won the peace, led by a Southerner? Next time you try to belittle those who still fail to see the New Birth of Freedom and its prime advocate, “Honest” Abe Lincoln the rail-splitter (or is it word-splitter) as the savoir and not the ruination of what the Founding Fathers wrought, be sure one of good ole boys in the pickup trucks with the loud pipes and Confederate flag flying from the radio antenna is not one of the recipients of yore Northern, holier-than-thou slander. I bet you thought we just plain could not read, huh? Nazism my foot!

There is an old story about the Southern gal who was sent to charm school to learn to say the word “fantastic” instead of “bull *****.” You ought to keep up with the more recent Lincoln historiography that finds him, his presidency, and his policies in peace and war less than noble. But i guess that that is impossible because your fawning adoration of, what was it Secretary of War Stanton (or was it General George McClellan) called him? --“the baboon in the White House," I believe. It’s all quite fantastic, isn’t it?

Well, y’all (you know the difference between y’all and all y’all?) will have to excuse me, good buddies, I have to go out and warm up the ole P.U. truck and hoist the Rebel flag, and hit the horn once real goooood, ‘cause it plays “Dixie.” Fantastic! Who’d a thunk it? Well, in all honesty, my door bell plays it, too, and it’s the ring tone on my cell phone. You Yanks shore do make some mighty fancy stuff!

Fantastic!

Excuse me for being so slow in returning yore e-mail. We do things a mite slow out thisaway. Did you know that Scarlett O’Hara was pregnant for 13 months in the first draft of Gone with the Wind? That damnyankee editor made Margaret Mitchell change it—even after she explained that the South was slow on everything. Makes you wonder where Stonewall Jackson’s “foot cavalry” come from. Bye now, hear?

William L. Richter (they do not call me Wild Bill for nuttin'!)
From the sovereign state of Louisiana
(hell, they even give me a collig degree from LSU! Shows you where education in the South has gone. Fantastic!)

[Gene C]

Gosh! Thanks Bill. I thought the North was just jealous because we consistently have better college football teams.

Here's something to think about
If the Yankees won the war, why are Carpet Bags made in Virginia & NC?
http://www.thecarpetbagger.com/ and..
http://www.carpetbagreplicas.com/

Being from KY, I can sit on both sides of the fence, (but it sure can be a pain in the @$$

[L Verge]

I know (or at least hope) that you are joshing us, Gene. However, Yankees quickly learned that QUALITY items come from the South - whether it be carpetbags or smooth Kentucky or Tennessee bourbon. That's what's known as the spoils of war. The victors keep the good stuff.

[Gene C]

No disrespect intended Wild Bill. I appreciate your knowledge and experience.

Some of us are more passionate in our beliefs and values on certain aspects of history than others are.
Some may be surprised, but one of mine was/is disagreeing with Lewis Gannett about one of his theories.

[Rsmyth]

Well, well, well Wild Bill, surely southern pride and heritage are not defined by four years, four years when the confederate flag was flown. Please do not accuse me of attacking the south. I love the south, the food, the scenery, the people. I vacation in the south. I am sure there are many things southerners can proud and could display as a symbol for the area they love. I just cannot understand why anyone would support and defend a symbol that stood for oppression and is distasteful to a large number of Americans today who feel it is a racist symbol. Please tell me the justification for displaying this flag.

[J. Beckert]

I've purposefully made strong attempts to avoid discussions like this on the forum because they usually implode and make headaches for Roger. Especially if you mention slavery. Having said that and ignoring my better judgement, (and making a precautionary apology to my good friend Roger) I think Toia's response was extremely reasonable and rational. I also see Bill's point, strongly share his views and understand his frustration. I'll also agree with Rich Smyth about these kids that I also see up here who think being a "redneck" is cool. I'd bet my last dollar that not one of these young ones know a damn thing about the flag they fly or any of the reasons hundreds of thousands of young men who never owned slaves went to war. The highest percentage of Southern slave owners I've ever seen is 10% and that's probably a high end. Driving a muddy pickup and flying the Stars and Bars doesn't make you a redneck. Spending years on a farm, covered in dirt and working long days like a dog has the upper hand over being a wannabee that likes NASCAR. I can vouch for that.

I started a thread a while ago about a book I'd recently read called "War Crimes Against Southern Civilians". It went over like a harlot in church. I understand that this is a Lincoln forum, but the truth is more important to me than hero worship. After learning so much here from those more educated than myself, I have serious questions about Lincoln's motives, character and policies, because I look at things objectively. I also look at the Southern cause the same way. Many young men went to war because their homeland was invaded, looted and burned. With Lincoln's initial views that he'd let slavery continue without expanding, I find that hard to reconcile. Throw in an attack on Fort Sumter in which not much harm was done, the questions about tariffs, etc., and I sometimes have a hard time looking at Lincoln as a benevolent statesman. In today's politically correct world, screaming racism at everything seems en vogue. I like to view things in a historical sense, view our ancestors through a lens that allows them a little wiggle room for the views they held in a different time with different mores that are at odds with the views we now hold and understand that the world is a constantly evolving place.

[BettyO]

Amen, Brother Joe!! I totally agree - well done!

No disrespect, Rich - but I too am proud of my Southern heritage like Bill. I'm also proud of my maternal great great grandfather who fought for the South as well as a maternal great great uncle who did likewise. Both survived the war. I'm equally proud of another great great paternal uncle who fought for the North. He didn't survive.

My ancestors fought for that flag and for the constitutionality it represented - it did NOT then or now represent the KKK or any other subversive organization - that mind-set, if you will, was perpetuated upon the flag by subversives who have therefore ruined it's meaning. My ancestors were middle class folk who did not own slaves. They were city dwelling Petersburg and Richmond, VA tobacconists, cobblers and printers on my mother's side and on my dad's side, small farmers and auctioneers - of farm equipment and land. As a matter of fact, four of my original ancestors came over from England in 1692 as indentured servants.

In short, to me - my southern background, including that flag, is my heritage. It's a part of me - who I am. I'm not ashamed of it. It is a part of our history and when history is eradicated or oppressed, something in all of us dies. History is not to be forgotten and pushed aside. People died for what they perceived, right or wrong, as their beliefs and rights as they saw fit. Just because we don't agree with their beliefs today does not make them or us wicked. One hundred and fifty years have passed - I say it's time to lay down the hatchet. Some of my very best friends are and have been Yankees and African American.

It all boils down to one thing - Respect - respect for us, our history and yes, "that flag" as well. We just all need to get along - it's that simple.

[Wild Bill]

No problem Gene.

As for Rsmyth, you have your culture I have mine. You see it as oppression and I see it as this country as it was set up under the Constitution. Read Lincoln's 1839 speech. He enslaved the Southern whites and freed the black slaves--so long as they stayed in the South. Then you modern Yankees condemn the Founders for not solving a problem that turned out to be more complicated than you ever thought. As a nation we have yet to solve that.

I find your hateful opposition to the South as distasteful as you find the Rebel flag. The statement that you love the South, the food, the scenery, the people, is much the same as what Northern people say when they claim they like blacks. It all rings a bit hollow. Remember Jim Crow started in the North and D'Toqueville thought Illinois' black code to be the most vicious of all the states.

Not everyone thinks as you do. But your moral superiority is touching.

[LincolnToddFan]

[Remember Jim Crow started in the North and D'Toqueville thought Illinois' black code to be the most vicious of all the states.]

Hi Bill,

I know about the ugly Illinois black code, but I need to understand your opinion about Jim Crow starting in the North. I cannot find any verification for this. As for the idea that AL "enslaved" Southern whites... as of April 15th 1865 when he died, the Southerners were certainly a defeated people living in territory occupied by Northerners, but President Lincoln died before he was able to implement what sounds to me like extraordinarily generous ideas for Reconstruction.

What actually did become of the defeated South under the Radical and vengeful Republicans in Congress in the 1870's is a different story, but that can hardly be laid at the feet of a dead man who most of the Radicals disliked and mistrusted anyway. Senator Ben Wade of Ohio went on record congratulating Andrew Johnson on the morning of the day of Lincoln's death...because he felt Lincoln was too soft on the "rebels" ("he had too much of the milk of human kindness in him...you will deal differently with these traitors!")

There were no Southerners on the auction block, or forced to prepare breakfast and nurse the children of the Yankees after the Civil War. There were few if any poor white Southerners lynched and hung from trees.

I am a Yankee, but I come in peace. I am asking these questions in a sincere attempt to understand.

Frankly, I hope Roger will close this thread. It's given me a sick headache just reading through it.