Lincoln and Ann Rutledge

[Mike B.]

(06-25-2014 05:09 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  David,

"I do not understand 1836 being Lincoln's mental breakdown year. Is that just a typographical error?"

I hope I've already cleared this up. It's not a typo, by the way. I think you misunderstood my sentence.

"The well-respected Lincoln scholar Ida Tarbell published a book in 1896 entitled The Early Life of Abraham Lincoln. She interviewed many of the same Rutledge family members and residents of New Salem that Herndon interviewed for his famous lecture on the Abraham Lincoln-Ann Rutledge love story and thus had the first-hand opportunity to measure credibility of her witnesses familiar with the story."

Ida Tarbell's book appeared 61 years after Ann Rutledge died. Tarbell did not, in fact, interview "many of the same Rutledge family members and residents of New Salem that Herndon interviewed." Most of the witnesses were dead well before 1896, including Ann's brother Robert Rutledge (d. 1881), by far the most important Rutledge informant--in fact, the only significant Rutledge informant (Jean Berry, Ann's sister, was very young when Ann died). Help me out: who did Tarbell interview who witnessed events in New Salem & environs in the late summer of 1835? Offhand I know of only one, William "Slick Willie" Greene, who in my opinion isn't a reliable source, as detailed at length in an article I published in Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association, issue of Summer 2010 (Google lewis gannett ann rutledge to get the full text). Greene is the source of the anecdote about Lincoln's involuntary weeping over the memory of Ann, which you quote as follows:

"The last chapter of the book is entitled 'Lincoln's First Acquaintance with Ann Rutledge--The Story of Their Love.' I quote from the last section of that chapter entitled 'Ann's Engagement to Lincoln' (pages 214-18). Ida Tarbell wrote: 'The lovers passed an hour alone in an anguished parting, and soon after, on August 25, 1835, Ann died.... The death of Ann Rutledge plunged Lincoln into the deepest gloom. That abiding melancholy, that painful sense of the incompleteness of life, which had been his mother's dowry to him, asserted itself. (emphasis added) It filled and darkened his mind and his imagination, tortured him with its black pictures. One stormy night he was sitting beside William Greene, his head bowed on his hand, while tears trickled through his fingers; his friend begged him to control his sorrow, to try to forget. 'I cannot,' moaned Lincoln; 'the thought of the snow and rain [falling] on her grave fills me with indescribable grief.'"

Now, the first thing to say about Greene's statement is how Herndon-like it sounds. Even allowing for Victorian purple prose, it's way over the top. Second, no contemporary gave a first-hand account of Lincoln saying good-bye to Ann: the "anguished parting" is supposition. Yes, the deathbed farewell scene is famous. But we don't have an account. This is what we have: the little Rutledge farmhouse on McNamar's land some six miles out of New Salem was a scene of abject misery. The whole family was desperately ill with "brain fever" that had sickened the entire area. We have no first-hand account of a funeral for Ann; there might not have been a funeral. Few if any ceremonial niceties attended her death & that of others in what was probably a typhus epidemic. As one contemporary recalled, there weren't enough well people to take care of the sick. It was truly a terrible time for little New Salem and much of the rest of Southern Illinois. Greene quoted Lincoln lamenting rain and snow on Rutledge's grave. Lincoln did speak of rain on Ann's grave, according to one other firsthand account in addition to Greene's. Here's the thing, though: those two comments about rain on the grave are the only recorded references Lincoln made to Ann in the aftermath of her death. Isaac Cogdal supplied more Lincoln quotes about Ann, but these statements, if Lincoln really made them, which is highly doubtful, happened in '65 or '66, 30 years after the events. Think about this. Here we have alleged events of very high drama. But no one remembered Lincoln saying, at the time, anything about the tragedy other than remarks about rain. Actually, it's even more peculiar. Other than the two rain comments and Cogdal's dubious claims we have no reliable records that Lincoln ever spoke of or even wrote to Ann. "My heart is buried there," meaning the grave: no reputable historian will tell you that we have evidence that Lincoln uttered those words. Ann's name appears nowhere in the Collected Works. No letters from either party to the other. No contemporary diary accounts. No marriage documents.

David, I realize that you took some effort to compose your post, I thank you for it, and I'm glad to have made this reply. But there's not much point in me going further. You can find more details than you probably want to know about all of this in the JALA article.

Best, Lewis

Aren't two references to the rain and snow beating on her grave important in the sense that it was so memorable that people independently remembered he said it decades later?

Heart buried in her grave is of course nothing.

---

(06-25-2014 05:36 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  

(06-25-2014 05:27 PM)Mike B. Wrote:  Cogdal may have got the wording wrong, but it is not to much to assume Lincoln made a reference to her when asked. Tripp tried to use the technique of similarity of writing to determine authorship in JALA, but this is a misuse. Cogdal can't be supposed to remember the exact wording of a six year old conversation. We are not dealing with a verbatim transcript of the conversation.

Mike,

It's true that Cogdal's quotes from Lincoln might not sound like Lincoln because Cogdal was recalling them after six years, and inadvertently used his own speaking style. I agree with you about that. But there are more serious problems with Cogdal's claims. Why was he the only person to whom Lincoln ever confided such personal acknowledgments about his past? Lincoln didn't even tell Joshua Speed about Ann Rutledge. I agree with David Donald and Tripp that the Cogdal evidence is very shaky. I don't however with agree with Tripp's argument about the phrasing, and told him so when we were preparing the book.

Remember in the exchange it is Lincoln responding to a question. Not bringing it up. The most "shut-mouthed" man would most likely not bring it up with anyone.

[Lewis Gannett]

(06-25-2014 05:37 PM)Mike B. Wrote:  Aren't two references to the rain and snow beating on her grave important in the sense that it was so memorable that people independently remembered he said it decades later?

Heart buried in her grave is of course nothing.

Mike: Yes, the rain comments are important. They're fascinating and strange and spooky: in other words, they're very Lincoln. One thing to get out of the way: "snow" only figures in William Greene quotes in Tarbell; neither Greene nor Elizabeth Abell mentioned snow to Herndon. I should have mentioned that the other person who reported that Lincoln had lamented rain on Ann's grave was none other than Elizabeth Abell, in my opinion one of the most reliable New Salem witnesses. I devote pages to this in JALA. Short answer, Mike: you are quite right. Tripp talks about it. He makes the point that Lincoln was extremely sensitive to bad weather (so does Joshua Shenk in his valuable book on Lincoln and depression). I think of this in the context that the area had endured extraordinarily heavy rains from late spring right through the summer of '35, which fostered an explosion of mosquitos, which, experts think, spread the "brain fever" epidemic. It was so bad that outdoor latrines overflowed, generating yellow flies and black flies, no window screens of course, vomit & diarrhea on the floors attracting the flies, etc.: it was just horrible. I haven't seen references in the literature to support a thought that crossed my mind, but I've wondered about how hard it might have been simply to dig graves. Excellent point, Mike.

[RJNorton]

I have discussed this with Ed Steers in the past, and I do agree 100% with Ed's conclusion in his book.

[Lewis Gannett]

(06-25-2014 06:05 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  I have idiscussed this with Ed Steers in the past, and I do agree 100% with Ed's conclusion in his book.

I read the Steers chapter on Tripp with interest. Some of the particulars elude me at the moment but I recall thinking that he indulged in the same approach for which so many critics faulted Tripp: selective choice of evidence. With all due respect I'll repeat what I said about Bill Hanchett's challenge, but with a tweak: no one has systematically rebutted Tripp. Including David Donald, who issued "We Are Lincoln Men": Abraham Lincoln and His Friends as a kind of preemptive strike.

[Gene C]

Lewis, I don't have anything new to offer you about your theories that you haven't heard before, but then you haven't offered us anything new either. To me, your like the Booth Mummy. Nobody believes it's real, the story behind it doesn't add up, but its odd so I kind of want to see it. After you see it, you come away disappointed, mostly in yourself for wasting your time, money and attention on it. Your theories that Lincoln was a homosexual, are like that, it's "carnival side show" history. And then you have the gall to whine and comment that no one will do a systematic rebuttal. Sorry, but I've seen this kind of side show before, and as others have noted, there's nothing of substance to it.

Some of the other things you've commented on have merit, but not this.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Lewis, I'm sorry, I've yet read your theories only as far as posted on this thread (but am generally not unfamiliar with the topic and arguments). I have also drawn my personal conclusions on this so far unprovable topic. May I ask - have you (of anyone else) ever investigated what gay men think of the theories of Lincoln being gay?
(I wonder in how far such theories are developed and promoted by people who have personally only little experience and acquaintance with homosexuals and homosexuality. )
Lewis, just to say - this is a serious question, and I would highly appreciate any comment. Thanks!

[Wild Bill]

there are web pages by gays in this mass of stuff

Alarik, Scott. “Overreaching Limits Lincoln Biography,” The Boston Globe, January 23, 2005.
Brookhiser, Richard. “Was Lincoln Gay?” New York Times Book Review, January 9, 2005.
Epstein, Daniel Mark The Real Lincoln Bedroom: Love in a Time of Strife,” New York Times, July 3, 2008, B1.
Ewers, Justin “The Real Lincoln,” U.S. News & World Report, 126 (February 21, 2005), 66.
Greenburg, Paul. “The Essential Lincoln: Reflections on a Great President’s Birthday,” Jewish World Review, February, 11 2005.
Nobile, Philip. “A Dishonest Book Claims Lincoln as the First Log Cabin Republican,” The Weekly Standard, 10 (January 17, 2005).
Smith, Dinitia. “Finding Homosexual Threads in Lincoln’s Legend,” New York Times, December 16, 2004, B1.
Tripp, C. A. The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln. New York: Free Press, 2005.

[Lewis Gannett]

David quotes Herndon: "I never became acquainted with [Mr. Lincoln] till his second race for the Legislature in 1834." Herndon's Life of Lincoln, Da Capo paperback, 1983, page 73.

David quotes me: "It's worth keeping in mind that New Salem was a tiny village, and nearby Springfield was a dusty little market town. Gossip moves fast in such locales. Why did it take Herndon thirty years to learn about a pivotal episode in his hero's youth?"

David asks: "Why did not Lincoln's new law partner in Springfield know about this episode in Lincoln's life if it was common gossip in Sringfield? Or, the man who was shortly to become his best friend, Joshua Speed? (Speed wrote back that "It was news to him" after Herndon sent him a copy of the Ann Rutledge lecture.) Or, how about Judge Logan or Judge David Davis? Were they all part of Herndon's "devious" conspiracy? I supremely doubt it!"

David, you quote Herndon saying that he met Lincoln in 1834. Ann Rutledge died in 1835. Why didn't Herndon hear about Lincoln's reaction to her death, if it was a major tragedy in Lincoln's life? The logical answer: it wasn't a major tragedy in Lincoln's life. Which would explain why Speed, Logan, Davis, & others in Springfield never heard about the episode until Herndon's lecture decades later, in 1866. Something disturbing did happen to Lincoln in New Salem in late summer 1835. Some New Salem residents concluded that Lincoln was grieving for Ann. But most did not. If you look at all the interviews Herndon and his associates conducted with former New Salem-area residents, as collected in Herndon's Informants, the majority of the people interviewed never brought up the subject of Ann Rutledge at all. Hannah Armstrong, for example, who knew Lincoln well: she never mentioned the subject of a doomed love affair with Ann. The point is that the historical reality of the Rutledge story is very much open to doubt. So, why is it a big deal in Lincoln history? THAT'S the question! The other question is: What happened to Abraham Lincoln in New Salem the late summer of 1835? We still don't really know.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(06-26-2014 08:54 AM)Wild Bill Wrote:  there are web pages by gays in this mass of stuff

Alarik, Scott. “Overreaching Limits Lincoln Biography,” The Boston Globe, January 23, 2005.
Brookhiser, Richard. “Was Lincoln Gay?” New York Times Book Review, January 9, 2005.
Epstein, Daniel Mark The Real Lincoln Bedroom: Love in a Time of Strife,” New York Times, July 3, 2008, B1.
Ewers, Justin “The Real Lincoln,” U.S. News & World Report, 126 (February 21, 2005), 66.
Greenburg, Paul. “The Essential Lincoln: Reflections on a Great President’s Birthday,” Jewish World Review, February, 11 2005.
Nobile, Philip. “A Dishonest Book Claims Lincoln as the First Log Cabin Republican,” The Weekly Standard, 10 (January 17, 2005).
Smith, Dinitia. “Finding Homosexual Threads in Lincoln’s Legend,” New York Times, December 16, 2004, B1.
Tripp, C. A. The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln. New York: Free Press, 2005.

Thanks, Bill!

[Lewis Gannett]

(06-26-2014 06:01 AM)Gene C Wrote:  Lewis, I don't have anything new to offer you about your theories that you haven't heard before, but then you haven't offered us anything new either. To me, your like the Booth Mummy. Nobody believes it's real, the story behind it doesn't add up, but its odd so I kind of want to see it. After you see it, you come away disappointed, mostly in yourself for wasting your time, money and attention on it. Your theories that Lincoln was a homosexual, are like that, it's "carnival side show" history. And then you have the gall to whine and comment that no one will do a systematic rebuttal. Sorry, but I've seen this kind of side show before, and as others have noted, there's nothing of substance to it.

Some of the other things you've commented on have merit, but not this.

Hey, call me a whiner if you like. But keep in mind that William Hanchett, not me, first challenged the Lincoln profession to either disprove the Tripp thesis or rewrite Lincoln history. Other senior scholars agree with Hanchett, by the way. John Stauffer, Chair of American Studies at Harvard, endorsed the Tripp book. So did Jean Baker. Do those names mean anything to you? "Nobody believes it's real," you say. Gene: You have some reading to do.

[Gene C]

(06-26-2014 08:54 AM)Wild Bill Wrote:  there are web pages by gays in this mass of stuff

Interesting that 6 of the 7 newspaper or magazine articles
were all published within about 60 days of each other.

I wonder if that's significant?

[Lewis Gannett]

(06-26-2014 07:29 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Lewis, I'm sorry, I've yet read your theories only as far as posted on this thread (but am generally not unfamiliar with the topic and arguments). I have also drawn my personal conclusions on this so far unprovable topic. May I ask - have you (of anyone else) ever investigated what gay men think of the theories of Lincoln being gay?
(I wonder in how far such theories are developed and promoted by people who have personally only little experience and acquaintance with homosexuals and homosexuality. )
Lewis, just to say - this is a serious question, and I would highly appreciate any comment. Thanks!

Eva, yes it is a serious question. You're asking about bias. That's probably to most important question in the practice of history. Can any of us free ourselves from preconceptions, background, things we learned when young, and so on. If I understand you correctly you're asking specifically if heterosexual scholars have addressed theories about Lincoln's sexuality--and if so, are they less biased than gay scholars might be. Here's what I can tell you. Jean Baker is a professor history at Goucher College. She's married with kids and as far as I know, thoroughly "straight." Jean also is a leading biographer of Mary Todd Lincoln. For what it's worth--and it might not be a great deal--Jean's the only academic I've ever heard of who turned down tenure at Harvard. In short, she's very well respected. She wrote the Introduction to C. A. Tripp's book about Lincoln's sexuality (bisexuality the most accurate way to put it). She doesn't buy every last aspect of the book's argument; she thinks for example that Tripp is too hard on Mary Lincoln. But on the whole, Jean has endorsed the Tripp thesis. Now, can we conclude that because Jean isn't gay, her endorsement is "less biased" than that of, say, Gore Vidal, a gay writer? Vidal wrote, "I found Tripp's conclusions not only convincing but, in the light of his evidence, irrefutable." Some people might say, "Vidal's gay! Of course he likes the book." But wait a second: Vidal has written numerous acclaimed novels about American history in which gay themes don't figure in the least. Is it fair to say that he has a "gay agenda" that distorts his views? Probably not, in my opinion. But it's a tricky issue. Dealing with it requires honesty and effort.

[Gene C]

(06-26-2014 09:19 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  [. Gene: You have some reading to do.

I've read this that you wrote, and it was enough. Especially part 111, Suggestions in the New Testament that Jesus had a Gay Sex Life
"The New Testamen includes stories of Jesus hanging around with young men wearing only a white cloth and who then get totaly naked."

http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index....nt_and_Sex

You're pretty good at taking things out of context and twisting and editing passages into perverted insinuations that clearly aren't there.

[Lewis Gannett]

(06-26-2014 10:05 AM)Gene C Wrote:  

(06-26-2014 09:19 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  [. Gene: You have some reading to do.

I've read this that you wrote, and it was enough. Especially part 111, Suggestions in the New Testament that Jesus had a Gay Sex Life
"The New Testamen includes stories of Jesus hanging around with young men wearing only a white cloth and who then get totaly naked."

http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index....nt_and_Sex

You're pretty good at taking things out of context and twisting and editing passages into perverted insinuations that clearly aren't there.

Gene, get a grip. Talk about twisting things out of context! You are frothing at the mouth, my man.

[RJNorton]

(06-01-2014 04:26 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I don't remember anyone mentioning this, but evidently Abraham was not what we would consider an attractive young man.

I agree, Gene. Example: Mary Owens wrote several letters to Herndon. Here is part of one:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As I said to you in a former letter, I thought him lacking in smaller atentions. One circumstance presents itself just now to my minds eye. There was a company of us going to Uncle Billy Greens, Mr. L. was riding with me, and we had a very bad branch to cross, the other gentlemen were very officious in seeing that their partners got over safely; we were behind, he riding in never looking back to see how I got along; when I rode up beside him, I remarked, you are a nice fellow; I suppose you did not care whether my neck was broken or not. He laughingly replied, (I suppose by way of compliment) that he knew I was plenty smart to take care of myself. In many things he was sensitive almost to a fault. He told me of an incident; that he was crossing a prairie one day, and saw before him a hog mired down, to use his own language; he was rather fixed up and he resolved that he would pass on without looking towards the shoat, after he had gone by, he said, the feeling was eresistable and he had to look back, and the poor thing seemed to say so wistfully — There now! my last hope is gone; that he deliberately got down and relieved it from its difficulty.

In many things we were congenial spirits. In politics we saw eye to eye, though since then we have differed as widely as the South is from the North. But me thinks I hear you say, save me from a political woman! So say I. The last message I ever received from him was about a year after we parted in Illinois. Mrs. Able visited Ky. and he said to her in Springfield, Tell your Sister, that I think she was a great fool, because she did not stay here and marry me."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Gene, I have also read that Mary Owens said Lincoln was "deficient in the little links that make for woman's happiness."

And to quote from
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860...w=fulltext

"He had no illusions about his personal appearance and joked about it so often that there is reason to believe that he deliberately tried to capitalize upon his homeliness. Speaking at a banquet held by Anti-Nebraska editors at Decatur, on February 22, 1856, he apologized for being present, explaining that not being an editor he felt out of place. He illustrated his feelings by telling of an extremely ugly man who, riding along a narrow road, was met by a woman. As she passed the woman looked at him intently and finally observed: "Well, you are the ugliest man I ever saw." "Perhaps so," admitted the unfortunate fellow, somewhat crestfallen, "but I can't help that, madam." "No, I suppose not," agreed the woman, "but you might stay at home."