Dave Taylor / Davey Herold Question

[Gene C]

Ray Neff has some interesting things to say about Robinson and Augustus Seward in "Dark Union".

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio....htmllot's

[JMadonna]

(02-14-2014 03:46 PM)KateH. Wrote:  

(02-14-2014 03:14 PM)JMadonna Wrote:  

(02-14-2014 02:43 PM)KateH. Wrote:  Or he said he found no evidence that Atzerodt did anything.

Which is what Atzerodt had already told Booth to his face when he gave him the assignment.

So why was Atzerodt asking strange questions about Johnson to the bartender? And why was he arrested and executed for attempting to kill Johnson? Why was he still in town if Booth gave his job to someone else?

Kate - The bartender questions occurred before Booth gave the assassination order. As to the reason why and the rest of your questions, all can be found in my book ' A Threat to the Republic'.( shameless plug, I know) but I don't think I can get away with rehashing my theory all over again.

Suffice to say if you believe Atzerodt told the truth about what happened the story takes a different turn. If you don't, well you end up trying to fill in a giant hole with a bunch of maybes.

[L Verge]

(02-14-2014 02:21 PM)Cliff Roberts Wrote:  I think Booth doubted that Atzerodt would have the nerve to kill the Vice President, but I don't think he ever intended for Herold to kill Johnson or anyone else. After Lincoln, Seward was the main target, which is why Booth assigned his best man to the job. Powell was the only conspirator Booth could be certain of to complete his assignment (which he would have, had it not been for that steel neck brace). With this in mind, it makes no sense that Booth intended to leave Powell on his own after killing Seward, in effect, abandoning his best man. Powell spent only a short time in Washington, seldom venturing out except with others, so there's no reason to suppose that he was "familiar" with the city or its environs, nor is it likely he'd head toward Baltimore, a city where he was known to military police and ordered out of. Herold's primary assignment that night was guiding Powell to Surrattsville; at that point, it could be decided to split up or stay together. The idea of Booth assigning young Herold to manage the actions of the various conspirators, as someone suggested, doesn't sound plausible; Davy Herold, as assassination stage director? Of course, absent any definitive evidence as to exactly what assignments the various conspirators were given that night, all we are left with is conjecture. Incidently, it was Atzerodt who stated that Booth was the one who visited a pretty chambermaid at Seward's house and learned that Dr. Verdi was treating Seward, which likely led to the ruse Powell used to get into the house. Seward's nurse, Robinson, did testify at trial that Powell looked like the man who visited the home earlier that evening, but he later amended that testimony by stating he wasn't sure about it.

I will agree with your first few sentences - except your comment about the metal brace saving Seward, since that brace was not put on the Secretary until days later. However, David Herold would have been the natural to serve as point man to see that deeds got done and report back to Booth. He had grown up in the city and knew it well. It was not that difficult a city to navigate in 1865. BTW: The "someone" who first suggested that Herold was the point man was Michael W. Kauffman, one of the best in the assassination field.

Powell, on the other hand, had been sent to do one job and did not need to stick with any of the gang after doing his one job. From Lafayette Square, it was an easy route to head north. We speculate that he wanted to get back to Baltimore and probably the Bransons; but what if he wanted to get back to the Valley and Mosby? He would need to go west.

And, if some of us are correct that Mosby had sent some of his men to the Northern Neck of Virginia to assist Booth, Powell's strength would not be needed, and he had no knowledge of that route. The Mosby Rangers that appear to have been in the Northern Neck "going home from the war" were natives of that area and could be a lot more helpful to Booth.

Dogs may run in packs to the end, but I think smart men separate and make their pursuers do the same. Also, it's a lot easier to hide two men than three or four.

[KateH.]

Do you mean the statements Atzerodt gave? Were they truthful? No, I don't believe he told the truth. In both confessions (the first one and the "lost" one) he lies. In the first statement (which can be found in "From War Department Files") he says that he knew about the assassination and was asked to assist. "Booth proposed that we should kill the President...that Wood would go up to Seward's house and kill him...He then asked me if I was willing myself to assist them." Then, in his "lost" confession, he says that he heard Booth mention murdering Lincoln and Seward and he did not believe the story. "He then said he was going to kill the President and Wood, the Secy. of State. I did not believe him." A few short lines down he says, "I repeat I never knew anything about the murder." Atzerodt wasn't being truthful and, on trial for his life, may have tried to implement others (Herold, Mary Surratt, Dr. Mudd) further so his own sentence would be reduced.

[RJNorton]

(02-14-2014 03:46 PM)KateH. Wrote:  So why was Atzerodt asking strange questions about Johnson to the bartender?

(02-14-2014 04:39 PM)JMadonna Wrote:  Kate - The bartender questions occurred before Booth gave the assassination order.

Kate and Jerry, I have always been curious as to the original source for all these questions. The bartender, Michael Henry, did not testify at the trial. Did he give a statement about exactly what Atzerodt was asking? Are the specific questions really known?

Jim Bishop writes on p. 137:

"Atzerodt spent most of his time drinking at the bar and trying to be disarming. He asked so many questions of the bartender and the few customers that he excited suspicion. Where exactly, he wanted to know, is the Vice-President's room? Does he have a guard? Could any citizen knock on the door and have a chat with him? A man in his position doesn't carry firearms, does he? How about the n.....r who stands behind him when he eats - where does he go when Johnson goes back to his quarters? Does the Vice-President stay home at night or does he go-out? Would you say that he was a brave man or a coward? Ever see any soldiers around him?"

Is this another example of Bishop "creating" or "embellishing?" Or is there an original source for these questions? Anyone know?

[BettyO]

Sounds interesting - but I wonder, like you Roger, if it's just Bishop embellishing fiction as you say. I don't put much (if any) stock in Bishop because although good, The Day Lincoln was Shot is predominately fiction. Would LOVE to know most of his resources, though.

Although I've found some articles; etc. on him, does anyone know what his papers contain other than what's posted online? Has anyone here ever seen them? I went here and found that they are housed at St. Bonaventure University located in St. Bonaventure, NY. Surprisingly, his research on the Lincoln Assassination consists of less than his other works - and his research notes cite another piece of fiction - Van Dorn Stern's The Man Who Shot Lincoln! He also seems to have used Pitmann's version of the assassination.

http://web.sbu.edu/Friedsam/archives/jim...incoln.htm

[JMadonna]

Bishop was a great writer who was very adept at filling in the blanks to create an effective narrative. His library has very few notes on the sources he used. The one footnote he left in his book regarding the time detectives entered Booth's room was wrong by 24 hours (as corroborated by testimony of the detective and hotel mgr). However, the error was needed to keep his storyline intact to 'the day' that Lincoln died.

IMO the bartender questions was a case of using literary license.

[BettyO]

I agree, Jerry!

[JMadonna]

Thanks Betty,

I confess that I've used literary license too.

[L Verge]

At some point, most historians are guilty of "adding two plus two to make five" in order to get their perceived points across to the reader. They figure that 99% of readers will not look for their source. Wild Bill knows that he can get on my nerves very quickly by saying, "If it didn't happen that way, it should have!"

[Gene C]

I tried using literary license around the house, but my wife said mine expired a longggg time ago.

[MaddieM]

(02-14-2014 12:13 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I believe that Booth let Atzerodt think that Herold was assigned -- and maybe Herold was. I just don't think Herold intended to commit anything other than "aiding and abetting" Booth in getting to the Potomac River. I agree with Mike Kauffman's theory that Herold was assigned to be point man. Make sure Powell got into the Seward home, check on Atzerodt, and then head across the Navy Yard Bridge to rendezvous with Booth and lead him into Southern Maryland. Of any of them, Herold was the least likely to be a lost dog in D.C. He knew the plan and stuck to it.

I don't think Herold had any other task regarding Powell, other than to witness the deed was done and report to Booth, who surely would have been keen to know the whole plot had been successful. I don't think he was assigned to lead Powell anywhere but rather just to see him enter the premises and then report back to Booth. Booth would surely have put himself first for having the one person who knew the terrain who could lead him to safety. I'll bet it was 'stuff the lot of them' once Booth was on the run. He seemed self serving to me, from what I've read.

---

(02-14-2014 02:21 PM)Cliff Roberts Wrote:  I think Booth doubted that Atzerodt would have the nerve to kill the Vice President, but I don't think he ever intended for Herold to kill Johnson or anyone else. After Lincoln, Seward was the main target, which is why Booth assigned his best man to the job. Powell was the only conspirator Booth could be certain of to complete his assignment (which he would have, had it not been for that steel neck brace). With this in mind, it makes no sense that Booth intended to leave Powell on his own after killing Seward, in effect, abandoning his best man. Powell spent only a short time in Washington, seldom venturing out except with others, so there's no reason to suppose that he was "familiar" with the city or its environs, nor is it likely he'd head toward Baltimore, a city where he was known to military police and ordered out of. Herold's primary assignment that night was guiding Powell to Surrattsville; at that point, it could be decided to split up or stay together. The idea of Booth assigning young Herold to manage the actions of the various conspirators, as someone suggested, doesn't sound plausible; Davy Herold, as assassination stage director? Of course, absent any definitive evidence as to exactly what assignments the various conspirators were given that night, all we are left with is conjecture. Incidently, it was Atzerodt who stated that Booth was the one who visited a pretty chambermaid at Seward's house and learned that Dr. Verdi was treating Seward, which likely led to the ruse Powell used to get into the house. Seward's nurse, Robinson, did testify at trial that Powell looked like the man who visited the home earlier that evening, but he later amended that testimony by stating he wasn't sure about it.

I've always wondered about that neck brace and why anyone would try to kill someone by slashing their throat. The easiest target would have been the heart, surely. Why didn't Powell aim for that, the largest body area.

[L Verge]

I am only guessing here, but Powell was trained in hand-to-hand combat and going for the jugular, which has virtually no protective skeleton around it, makes for a quick kill. The neck is also usually semi-exposed at least, whereas, in Seward's case, clothing and bed coverings add extra layers to cut through -- as well as having to make sure the blade hits between the ribs so that it gets to the heart.

[BettyO]

Good point, Laurie. I agree Maddie. I think Davey Herold was the "Point Man" more or less.

Powell was more than a bit rattled, I think. He expected to use his pistol to dispatch Seward, but after the altercation with Fred and the misfiring weapon, I think he panicked to find that the house was full of people; some of whom were women (which he had not expected) and he was further used to fighting out of doors, not within close quarters. He could not "skedaddle" as quickly as he could out in the open. He had to resort to his knife - seemingly an idea which was further repugnant to him.

[MaddieM]

(02-17-2014 05:06 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I am only guessing here, but Powell was trained in hand-to-hand combat and going for the jugular, which has virtually no protective skeleton around it, makes for a quick kill. The neck is also usually semi-exposed at least, whereas, in Seward's case, clothing and bed coverings add extra layers to cut through -- as well as having to make sure the blade hits between the ribs so that it gets to the heart.

I suppose he didn't think to rip the bed clothes off the guy. Which further goes to show he did what he did in a state of panic, rather than the cool collective actions of a trained assassin. He clearly had the knife on him as a back up...but when push came to shove, he messed it up good time. Was he actually trained in knife fighting? Or was he purely used to the hit and run on horseback that seems to be mostly written about his time with Mosby? It's one thing to shoot someone from horseback, and quite another to kill them with a knife. Would he have received this kind of training in the army?