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Craig Hipkins · 08-08-2012, 08:58 PM

Kate or Betty, What if Mrs. Surratt had played along with Powell and admitted knowing who he was? Do you think that this would have saved her from the gallows? I think that this denial of knowing who Powell was on the night he showed up at the boarding house sort of sealed her fate. I don't think John Lloyd's testimony or Louis weichmann's would have been enough to convict her. I most certainly could be wrong here!

Craig

MaddieM · (This post was last modified: 08-09-2012 03:28 AM by MaddieM.)

(08-08-2012 08:58 PM)Craig Hipkins Wrote: Kate or Betty, What if Mrs. Surratt had played along with Powell and admitted knowing who he was? Do you think that this would have saved her from the gallows? I think that this denial of knowing who Powell was on the night he showed up at the boarding house sort of sealed her fate. I don't think John Lloyd's testimony or Louis weichmann's would have been enough to convict her. I most certainly could be wrong here!

Craig

Well, she proved herself to be a liar, which is always a bad move. Makes you wonder just how smart this lot really were. Not much from the sound of it.

(08-08-2012 07:03 PM)BettyO Wrote: I, like Laurie believe that the boy was injured (possible concussion since he told Gillette that he was knocked out from being thrown when his horse fell with him; he did have facial injuries - black eye and busted lip.) He needed cover and he needed it quickly. Yes, he could have foraged it out in the open. But he more than likely knew that Federal soldiers were going to be out scouring the countryside looking for himself, Booth or anyone else involved. His plan was to skedaddle and skedaddle quickly - a key Mosby maneuver. He apparently knew or thought that Mrs. Surratt would take him in. He needed to get cleaned up, get a warm meal and most importantly, acquire a hat! For a Victorian gentleman to go about without a hat was the same as if he were to go about without his pants on! He would be conspicuous - extremely conspicuous; hence, the "made up stocking cap" made out of his undershirt sleeve. He could not have ridden on a train (and he had more than enough train fare - $25.00) in such a getup. He needed to look respectable to distract attention away from himself. He saw Mrs. Surratt as the key. Unfortunately for him, he did not think that detectives would be there when he called. Hence her denial of him. So, naive - yes, probably so. He was very young and he was a country boy to boot - not a city sophisticate. But stupid? No. He could think pretty cleverly when dead on his feet.

I'm wondering why on earth there was no contingency plan? Surely to God they must have planned some escape route or had the presence of mind to stash a change of clothes somewhere? It seems to me the whole thing was badly planned and thought out. Not the work of hardened assassins but more over zealous amateurs. Also, if he did not think the detectives would be there when he called, why was he carrying that pick axe and pretending to be a labourer?

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 08-09-2012 04:29 PM by Gene C.)

(08-08-2012 07:03 PM)BettyO Wrote: He could not have ridden on a train (and he had more than enough train fare - $25.00) in such a getup. He needed to look respectable to distract attention away from himself.

If he had $25, why not check into a cheap motel, buy (or steal off a close line?) some inexpensive, but clean clothes, a hat, and get a hot meal? Going to Surratt's boarding house for help, someone living there would have to see and recognize him. He must have believed that he would get help there (from JohnS? or Mary?)

With $25, he's not as destitute as I thought.

MaddieM · 08-09-2012, 07:30 AM

(08-09-2012 07:23 AM)Gene C Wrote:
(08-08-2012 07:03 PM)BettyO Wrote: He could not have ridden on a train (and he had more than enough train fare - $25.00) in such a getup. He needed to look respectable to distract attention away from himself.

If he had $25, why not check into a cheap motel, buy (or steal off a close line?) some inexpensive, but clean clothes, a hat, and get a hot meal? Going to Surratt's boarding house for help, someone living there would have to see and recognize him. He must have believed that he would get help there (from JohnS? or Mary?)

With $25, he's not as destitue as I thought.

What was 25$ worth back then as opposed to now? $200?

Thomas Thorne · 08-09-2012, 02:55 PM

I think the very vehemence of Mary Surratt's denial,her behavior as if she was testifying at a trial and her freudian slip when she asserted that she and Anna thought that Powell had come to kill them indicate she knew Powell had tried to kill Seward and she had foreknowledge of that. Her source must have been JWB.

If you think Mrs Surratt was innocent or was only involved in the kidnapping conspiracy,consider that no person could have truthfully come forward and said he/she had seen Powell,Booth,John Surratt etc. lay rough hands on Lincoln in a kidnap attempt. Lots of people could truthfully identify Booth and Powell as the persons who attacked Lincoln and Seward respectively. .

Suppose Richard Smoot and not Louis Powell had shown up at 541 H St on Apr 17. I don't doubt Mary Surratt would have denied knowing him but her denials would not have been as dramatic and freudian. Certainly Smoot would have been hauled off to the Provost Marshall's office-in real life he was arrested but was ultimately released as no one could directly tie him to the assassination.
Tom

Laurie Verge · 08-09-2012, 03:31 PM

I think the escape plans for the assassination were thrown together at the last minute - mainly because I think the April 11 speech by Lincoln was the impetus to get it done as quickly as possible. I believe that Herold was sent to Southern Maryland sometime on April 12 and spent that day and April 13 touching base with the Southern planters and underground agents who would assist in getting any fugitives across the Potomac. Frankly, I think those Marylanders did an excellent job of secreting the pair from the Union forces that swarmed into the area within 24 hours.

I also think that Mosby had maintained at least minimal forces in Southern Maryland and/or Virginia's Northern Neck over the month between the kidnap scheme and the assassination in anticipation of something drastic happening. Herold's visit to the underground was relayed to the Mosby forces. There is also a tidbit about several riders pulling some kind of maneuver on the streets of Washington shortly after the assassination. I can't remember all the details here (Rick or Bill please help!). Could they have been Mosby's men in civilian garb?

Now, as for Powell? I think his Mosby training on how to skedaddle had him going in the opposite direction for Confederate underground support -- Baltimore and the Branson family. He would be harder to identify than matinee idol Booth, even if stopped.

If he had not found the Bennings Bridge closed and gotten lost in his detour, he probably would have made it to Baltimore within 25 to 36 hours. From there, I think he would have been home free. He was so sure of his skills and his route that he thought he didn't need a contingency plan. Actually, he just took the wrong road when he detoured - if he had taken a right instead of a left, he would have still been on a route that would have led to Baltimore.

As for someone identifying Powell as Seward's assailant, I personally feel that William Bell, the servant, was the only one who could give a definite and positive identification because he was the only one who had enough time to get a clear visual image of him. The other members of the family and George Robinson were so busy wrestling with Powell that I doubt they got a good look at him. Poor Fanny was probably so traumatized as to what was happening to her father that she didn't really focus on Powell's features.

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 08-09-2012 06:33 PM by BettyO.)

(08-09-2012 07:30 AM)MaddieM Wrote:
(08-09-2012 07:23 AM)Gene C Wrote:
(08-08-2012 07:03 PM)BettyO Wrote: He could not have ridden on a train (and he had more than enough train fare - $25.00) in such a getup. He needed to look respectable to distract attention away from himself.

If he had $25, why not check into a cheap motel, buy (or steal off a close line?) some inexpensive, but clean clothes, a hat, and get a hot meal? Going to Surratt's boarding house for help, someone living there would have to see and recognize him. He must have believed that he would get help there (from JohnS? or Mary?)

With $25, he's not as destitue as I thought.

What was 25$ worth back then as opposed to now? $200?

According to a currency converter online - $25.00 in 1865 is the equivalent of approximately $400.00 today. A lot of cash for a 20 year old - and more than enough for train fare!

(08-09-2012 03:14 AM)MaddieM Wrote:
(08-08-2012 08:58 PM)Craig Hipkins Wrote: Kate or Betty, What if Mrs. Surratt had played along with Powell and admitted knowing who he was? Do you think that this would have saved her from the gallows? I think that this denial of knowing who Powell was on the night he showed up at the boarding house sort of sealed her fate. I don't think John Lloyd's testimony or Louis weichmann's would have been enough to convict her. I most certainly could be wrong here!

Craig

Well, she proved herself to be a liar, which is always a bad move. Makes you wonder just how smart this lot really were. Not much from the sound of it.

(08-08-2012 07:03 PM)BettyO Wrote: I, like Laurie believe that the boy was injured (possible concussion since he told Gillette that he was knocked out from being thrown when his horse fell with him; he did have facial injuries - black eye and busted lip.) He needed cover and he needed it quickly. Yes, he could have foraged it out in the open. But he more than likely knew that Federal soldiers were going to be out scouring the countryside looking for himself, Booth or anyone else involved. His plan was to skedaddle and skedaddle quickly - a key Mosby maneuver. He apparently knew or thought that Mrs. Surratt would take him in. He needed to get cleaned up, get a warm meal and most importantly, acquire a hat! For a Victorian gentleman to go about without a hat was the same as if he were to go about without his pants on! He would be conspicuous - extremely conspicuous; hence, the "made up stocking cap" made out of his undershirt sleeve. He could not have ridden on a train (and he had more than enough train fare - $25.00) in such a getup. He needed to look respectable to distract attention away from himself. He saw Mrs. Surratt as the key. Unfortunately for him, he did not think that detectives would be there when he called. Hence her denial of him. So, naive - yes, probably so. He was very young and he was a country boy to boot - not a city sophisticate. But stupid? No. He could think pretty cleverly when dead on his feet.

I'm wondering why on earth there was no contingency plan? Surely to God they must have planned some escape route or had the presence of mind to stash a change of clothes somewhere? It seems to me the whole thing was badly planned and thought out. Not the work of hardened assassins but more over zealous amateurs. Also, if he did not think the detectives would be there when he called, why was he carrying that pick axe and pretending to be a labourer?

You would think that Powell would have had a change of clothing; at least a clean collar and tie and perhaps a spare hat! He certainly made sure he had duplicates of other articles; i.e. two toothbrushes and two handkerchiefs! According to some accounts he even had a cake of "fine toilet soap" as well as a pair of gloves, a nail brush, comb, hairbrush and also a bottle of hair oil. He was obviously prepared for any contingency in a minor emergency -- in case he lost his toothbrush or hankie, but certainly NOT as far as a hat was concerned! And a hat was a major article. Again - this appears to me to be something that shows that the boy was ill prepared...or at a distinct disadvantage as far as planning for emergencies go!

MaddieM · 08-10-2012, 03:51 AM

(08-09-2012 06:25 PM)BettyO Wrote:
(08-09-2012 07:30 AM)MaddieM Wrote:
(08-09-2012 07:23 AM)Gene C Wrote:
(08-08-2012 07:03 PM)BettyO Wrote: He could not have ridden on a train (and he had more than enough train fare - $25.00) in such a getup. He needed to look respectable to distract attention away from himself.

If he had $25, why not check into a cheap motel, buy (or steal off a close line?) some inexpensive, but clean clothes, a hat, and get a hot meal? Going to Surratt's boarding house for help, someone living there would have to see and recognize him. He must have believed that he would get help there (from JohnS? or Mary?)

With $25, he's not as destitue as I thought.

What was 25$ worth back then as opposed to now? $200?

According to a currency converter online - $25.00 in 1865 is the equivalent of approximately $400.00 today. A lot of cash for a 20 year old - and more than enough for train fare!

(08-09-2012 03:14 AM)MaddieM Wrote:
(08-08-2012 08:58 PM)Craig Hipkins Wrote: Kate or Betty, What if Mrs. Surratt had played along with Powell and admitted knowing who he was? Do you think that this would have saved her from the gallows? I think that this denial of knowing who Powell was on the night he showed up at the boarding house sort of sealed her fate. I don't think John Lloyd's testimony or Louis weichmann's would have been enough to convict her. I most certainly could be wrong here!

Craig

Well, she proved herself to be a liar, which is always a bad move. Makes you wonder just how smart this lot really were. Not much from the sound of it.

(08-08-2012 07:03 PM)BettyO Wrote: I, like Laurie believe that the boy was injured (possible concussion since he told Gillette that he was knocked out from being thrown when his horse fell with him; he did have facial injuries - black eye and busted lip.) He needed cover and he needed it quickly. Yes, he could have foraged it out in the open. But he more than likely knew that Federal soldiers were going to be out scouring the countryside looking for himself, Booth or anyone else involved. His plan was to skedaddle and skedaddle quickly - a key Mosby maneuver. He apparently knew or thought that Mrs. Surratt would take him in. He needed to get cleaned up, get a warm meal and most importantly, acquire a hat! For a Victorian gentleman to go about without a hat was the same as if he were to go about without his pants on! He would be conspicuous - extremely conspicuous; hence, the "made up stocking cap" made out of his undershirt sleeve. He could not have ridden on a train (and he had more than enough train fare - $25.00) in such a getup. He needed to look respectable to distract attention away from himself. He saw Mrs. Surratt as the key. Unfortunately for him, he did not think that detectives would be there when he called. Hence her denial of him. So, naive - yes, probably so. He was very young and he was a country boy to boot - not a city sophisticate. But stupid? No. He could think pretty cleverly when dead on his feet.

I'm wondering why on earth there was no contingency plan? Surely to God they must have planned some escape route or had the presence of mind to stash a change of clothes somewhere? It seems to me the whole thing was badly planned and thought out. Not the work of hardened assassins but more over zealous amateurs. Also, if he did not think the detectives would be there when he called, why was he carrying that pick axe and pretending to be a labourer?

You would think that Powell would have had a change of clothing; at least a clean collar and tie and perhaps a spare hat! He certainly made sure he had duplicates of other articles; i.e. two toothbrushes and two handkerchiefs! According to some accounts he even had a cake of "fine toilet soap" as well as a pair of gloves, a nail brush, comb, hairbrush and also a bottle of hair oil. He was obviously prepared for any contingency in a minor emergency -- in case he lost his toothbrush or hankie, but certainly NOT as far as a hat was concerned! And a hat was a major article. Again - this appears to me to be something that shows that the boy was ill prepared...or at a distinct disadvantage as far as planning for emergencies go!

Was there any way that some higher authority masterminded this, and perhaps guaranteed their escape, only to let them down at the 11th hour?

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 08-10-2012 09:27 AM by Gene C.)

(08-10-2012 03:51 AM)MaddieM Wrote:
(08-08-2012 07:03 PM)BettyO Wrote: It seems to me the whole thing was badly planned and thought out. Not the work of hardened assassins but more over zealous amateurs.

Was there any way that some higher authority masterminded this, and perhaps guaranteed their escape, only to let them down at the 11th hour?

I am glad you brought this up.......

We may need to start a new thread " My Favorite Lincoln Assassination Theories. A good book about this is William Hanchett's "The Lincoln Murder Conspiracies" He examines several of the popular theories and reaches an interesting conclusion. I won't spoil the ending, you'll have to read it.

Lots's of interesting books by different writers arguing their own ideas. Watch the Book section of this forum. Several of the older books are on the web on the Open Library. Another good reference is http://www.Lincoln-Assassination.com - the message board. Several of us who frequently posted on that web site have moved over to this forum. That forum has lots of great notes and comments, as well as some challenging ideas about the assassination (many made by the members here).

Laurie Verge · 08-10-2012, 10:25 AM

I love to speculate with the best of them, but I'm going to do my usual "history teacher" warning and say to please stipulate in your speculative postings that it is YOUR OPINION, not gospel truth. I hope that young students and beginning researchers join our conversations here, and I would hate for them to take some of our "guesses" as truth.

I think it would be very helpful also if we state our documentable reasons for thinking what we think. I have participated in other blogs where things got carried away, wrong information was being posted and repeated several times, etc.

I apologize if I sound like a disciplinarian or something, but I've been burned on this before... Roger is a former teacher, like I, so I'm pretty sure he backs me up on this.

MaddieM · (This post was last modified: 08-10-2012 10:42 AM by MaddieM.)

It's my guess and opinion - that this was so. I think also that emotional blackmail might have been employed to wind up the participants beyond their common sense. Perhaps the use of family and emotional guilt. For instance, Powell lost at least one brother to the war, could he have been promised not only glory for his part in this, but also revenge for his brother's death and saving his family from the aftermath of the South losing that the war might bring? Could he have been so wound up, that he was prepared to act in such a foolhardy manner? I'm not sure the influence of Booth alone would do this.

If someone offered me safe passage, protection and a swift guaranteed exit, then I might be less concerned with a contingency and the finer details of the responsibility of my own escape. Just a thought.

(08-10-2012 06:56 AM)Gene C Wrote: I am glad you brought this up.......

We may need to start a new thread " My Favorite Lincoln Assassination Theories. A good book about this is William Hanchett's "The Lincoln Murder Conspiracies" He examines several of the popular theories and reaches an interesting conclusion. I won't spoil the ending, you'll have to read it.

Lots's of interesting books by different writers arguing their own ideas. Watch the Book section of this forum. Several of the older books are on the web on the Open Library. Another good reference is http://www.Lincoln-Assassination.com - the message board. Several of us who frequently posted on that web site have moved over to this forum. That forum has lots of great notes and comments, as well as some challenging ideas about the assassination (many made by the members here).

I tried to join that site...twice. But nobody let me in Confused

As you can see, from my avi....Rhett consoled me.

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 08-10-2012 10:49 AM by BettyO.)

(08-10-2012 10:30 AM)MaddieM Wrote: It's my guess and opinion - that this was so. I think also that emotional blackmail might have been employed to wind up the participants beyond their common sense. Perhaps the use of family and emotional guilt. For instance, Powell lost at least one brother to the war, could he have been promised not only glory for his part in this, but also revenge for his brother's death and saving his family from the aftermath of the South losing that the war might bring? Could he have been so wound up, that he was prepared to act in such a foolhardy manner? I'm not sure the influence of Booth alone would do this.

If someone offered me safe passage, protection and a swift guaranteed exit, then I might be less concerned with a contingency and the finer details of the responsibility of my own escape. Just a thought.

(08-10-2012 06:56 AM)Gene C Wrote: I am glad you brought this up.......

We may need to start a new thread " My Favorite Lincoln Assassination Theories. A good book about this is William Hanchett's "The Lincoln Murder Conspiracies" He examines several of the popular theories and reaches an interesting conclusion. I won't spoil the ending, you'll have to read it.

Lots's of interesting books by different writers arguing their own ideas. Watch the Book section of this forum. Several of the older books are on the web on the Open Library. Another good reference is http://www.Lincoln-Assassination.com - the message board. Several of us who frequently posted on that web site have moved over to this forum. That forum has lots of great notes and comments, as well as some challenging ideas about the assassination (many made by the members here).

I tried to join that site...twice. But nobody let me in As you can see, from my avi....Rhett consoled me.

You are in good hands and more than welcome here, Maddie! Wink

So "Stay Tuned!"

(08-10-2012 10:30 AM)MaddieM Wrote: It's my guess and opinion - that this was so. I think also that emotional blackmail might have been employed to wind up the participants beyond their common sense. Perhaps the use of family and emotional guilt. For instance, Powell lost at least one brother to the war, could he have been promised not only glory for his part in this, but also revenge for his brother's death and saving his family from the aftermath of the South losing that the war might bring? Could he have been so wound up, that he was prepared to act in such a foolhardy manner? I'm not sure the influence of Booth alone would do this.

If someone offered me safe passage, protection and a swift guaranteed exit, then I might be less concerned with a contingency and the finer details of the responsibility of my own escape. Just a thought.

(08-10-2012 06:56 AM)Gene C Wrote: I am glad you brought this up.......

We may need to start a new thread " My Favorite Lincoln Assassination Theories. A good book about this is William Hanchett's "The Lincoln Murder Conspiracies" He examines several of the popular theories and reaches an interesting conclusion. I won't spoil the ending, you'll have to read it.

Lots's of interesting books by different writers arguing their own ideas. Watch the Book section of this forum. Several of the older books are on the web on the Open Library. Another good reference is http://www.Lincoln-Assassination.com - the message board. Several of us who frequently posted on that web site have moved over to this forum. That forum has lots of great notes and comments, as well as some challenging ideas about the assassination (many made by the members here).

I tried to join that site...twice. But nobody let me in As you can see, from my avi....Rhett consoled me.

(08-10-2012 10:25 AM)Laurie Verge Wrote: I love to speculate with the best of them, but I'm going to do my usual "history teacher" warning and say to please stipulate in your speculative postings that it is YOUR OPINION, not gospel truth. I hope that young students and beginning researchers join our conversations here, and I would hate for them to take some of our "guesses" as truth.

I think it would be very helpful also if we state our documentable reasons for thinking what we think. I have participated in other blogs where things got carried away, wrong information was being posted and repeated several times, etc.

I apologize if I sound like a disciplinarian or something, but I've been burned on this before... Roger is a former teacher, like I, so I'm pretty sure he backs me up on this.

Amen, Sister Laurie !!! Wink

RJNorton · 08-10-2012, 11:36 AM

I think Dr. William Hanchett's Lincoln Murder Conspiracies is a must read when it comes to clearing away much of the misinformation out there regarding the assassination.

Laurie and Betty, please correct me if I am wrong. Since he wrote the book, Dr. Hanchett has changed. He is now much more supportive of the Confederate theory. This support doesn't really show in Lincoln Murder Conspiracies but does show in his later writings. Perhaps Come Retribution had a major influence on him?

BettyO · 08-10-2012, 12:06 PM

(08-10-2012 11:36 AM)RJNorton Wrote: I think Dr. William Hanchett's Lincoln Murder Conspiracies is a must read when it comes to clearing away much of the misinformation out there regarding the assassination.

Laurie and Betty, please correct me if I am wrong. Since he wrote the book, Dr. Hanchett has changed. He is now much more supportive of the Confederate theory. This support doesn't really show in Lincoln Murder Conspiracies but does show in his later writings. Perhaps Come Retribution had a major influence on him?

Good question, Roger! I realize that Bill Hanchett's Lincoln Murder Conspiracies came out YEARS ago (1982 I believe) - at any rate - it is considered quite good. I know Dr. Hanchett quite well - have for years....

Yes, I believe that Messrs. Hall, Tidwell and Gaddy had an influence on his later writings.

Laurie - what say you? I know you also know Bill Hanchett -

Laurie Verge · 08-10-2012, 12:40 PM

Bill does lean towards the Come Retribution angle more now. He was also influenced by Mr. Hall during the writing of the Conspiracies book and told me that he changed some of his ideas after Mr. Hall showed him the light.

A similar thing happened when Mr. Hall was interviewed by Doris Kearns Goodwin while she was researching Team of Rivals. Nora Titone, author of the Booth book, was Ms. Goodwin's research assistant and later told me that Goodwin took a softer approach on Edwin Stanton after talking with Mr. Hall. In fact, she sent me a note to that effect and asked me to forward it to Mr. Hall shortly before his death. Unfortunately, he passed before Team of Rivals was published.