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+--- Thread: Questions About John Brown (/thread-656.html)
RE: Questions About John Brown - Wild Bill - 02-15-2016 04:03 PM
That was my point
RE: Questions About John Brown - Eva Elisabeth - 02-15-2016 06:05 PM
It seems there is a misquotation and Lincoln referred to the white southerners, not the freedmen.
I looked for the origin of the quote (I know Capenter has it in his "Six Months", he wasn't at Hampton Roads however.) I found this more contemporary "version" in M. Burlingame's "A Life", plus footnote, and this sounds much more like Lincoln to me:
"If slavery were abolished, Stephens asked: 'what are we to do? I know that negroes will not work, unless forced to it, and I tell you that we shall all starve together.' The question reminded Lincoln of an Illinois farmer who offered his neighbor advice on how to feed hogs: 'plant plenty of potatoes, and when they are mature, without either digging or housing them, turn the hogs in the field and let them get their own food as they want it.' When the neighbor asked, 'how will they do when the winter comes and the ground is hard frozen?' the farmer replied: 'let 'em root.' Southern whites, Lincoln said, 'can go to work like honest people or starve.'"199
Footnote:
"199 Washington correspondence, 22 February, by Van [D. W. Bartlett], Springfield, Massachusetts, Republican, 25 February 1865. Campbell and Stephens gave versions of this story that made Lincoln’s remarks apply to Southern freedmen. The more contemporary account makes it apply to whites. The latter version seems more plausible, given Lincoln’s well-known attitude toward southern whites’ unwillingness to work and his oft-expressed concern for the well being of freed slaves."
RE: Questions About John Brown - Eva Elisabeth - 02-15-2016 07:58 PM
Wiki has this info on "root hog or die":
"Root, hog, or die" is a common American catch-phrase dating from well before 1834. Coming from the early colonial practice of turning pigs loose in the woods to fend for themselves, the term is an idiomatic expression for self-reliance".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_hog,_or_die
(Appealing to self-reliance is IMO something different than to abandon.)
RE: Questions About John Brown - L Verge - 02-15-2016 07:59 PM
If Mr. Lincoln did say that, I am insulted. As we know, there were thousands of honest, hard-working Southern people who never owned a slave and tilled the soil for tobacco, cotton, indigo, and rice, as well as sustenance, etc. in small portions that still required hours of toil each day. They had been root hogging their entire lives to sustain their families. And, surely both Stephens and Lincoln knew this.
I'm sure that Lincoln was referring to the "elite" of the Old South who did own slaves (and often worked along side of them), but such a sweeping generalization that includes all Southern whites was/is unfair. Further unfair was that Reconstruction policies often deprived Southern farmers of the land they depended on to survive.
RE: Questions About John Brown - Eva Elisabeth - 02-15-2016 08:10 PM
Please keep in mind that it was a reply to Stephens "If slavery were abolished, what are we to do? I know that negroes will not work, unless forced to it, and I tell you that we shall all starve together."
(It seems Stephens either didn't know of those "honest, hard-working Southern people who never owned a slave and tilled the soil", or he didn't have much faith in them. It was just a question that left IMO no other reply. Should Lincoln have expressed pity instead?)
RE: Questions About John Brown - Gene C - 02-15-2016 08:12 PM
This reminds me of a song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uy_9Wvuc8Y
one by GrandPa Jones - it's pretty good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLH3jkQk8-E
of coarse there is a different song with the same title by The Harlem Hamfats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwnF2eMVpo4
Then there is the old June Carter song (wife of Johnny Cash)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4Elwdp0XA
and the Woody Guthrie song, but I don't care for that one.
RE: Questions About John Brown - L Verge - 02-15-2016 08:41 PM
(02-15-2016 08:10 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Please keep in mind that it was a reply to Stephens "If slavery were abolished, what are we to do? I know that negroes will not work, unless forced to it, and I tell you that we shall all starve together."
(It seems Stephens either didn't know of those "honest, hard-working Southern people who never owned a slave and tilled the soil", or he didn't have much faith in them. It was just a question that left IMO no other reply. Should Lincoln have expressed pity instead?)
By the time this conversation took place, I think the Lincoln that I recognize as a master politician would have had some conciliatory reply dealing with plans that he hoped he and Congress could put in place to alleviate some of the dire circumstances that were facing the freedmen as well as the whites who had had their lands destroyed or confiscated.
That's why I keep harping on what plans Lincoln had formulated before his death. Advanced planning means a lot to success in my way of thinking. I just can't believe that all he could come up with was "let 'em up easy," "root hog or die," or even giving certain freedmen the right to vote. Had the fight for the 13th Amendment kicked the strength out of him?
RE: Questions About John Brown - Susan Higginbotham - 02-15-2016 08:45 PM
There are several versions of the "root hog or die" story in the 1865 newspapers:
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84038628/1865-03-06/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1865&index=6&rows=20&words=die+hog+Root&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1865&proxtext=Root+hog+or+die&y=4&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85026241/1865-06-08/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1865&index=9&rows=20&words=die+hog+root&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1865&proxtext=Root+hog+or+die&y=4&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1865-06-24/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1865&index=11&rows=20&words=Die+Hog+Root&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1865&proxtext=Root+hog+or+die&y=4&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
For additional context, there's also this:
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84038628/1865-04-12/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1865&index=4&rows=20&words=die+hog+Root&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1865&proxtext=Root+hog+or+die&y=4&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
RE: Questions About John Brown - L Verge - 02-15-2016 09:13 PM
(02-15-2016 08:45 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: There are several versions of the "root hog or die" story in the 1865 newspapers:
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84038628/1865-03-06/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1865&index=6&rows=20&words=die+hog+Root&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1865&proxtext=Root+hog+or+die&y=4&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85026241/1865-06-08/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1865&index=9&rows=20&words=die+hog+root&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1865&proxtext=Root+hog+or+die&y=4&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1865-06-24/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1865&index=11&rows=20&words=Die+Hog+Root&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1865&proxtext=Root+hog+or+die&y=4&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
For additional context, there's also this:
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84038628/1865-04-12/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1865&index=4&rows=20&words=die+hog+Root&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1865&proxtext=Root+hog+or+die&y=4&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
The last, the Argus of April 12, 1865, is by far the best and should be repeated in history books and today's press for its statements are cogent to some modern policies.
RE: Questions About John Brown - Eva Elisabeth - 02-16-2016 05:36 AM
(02-15-2016 08:41 PM)L Verge Wrote:To my understanding the Hampton Roads conference was a farce from the beginning, not on either side a serious attempt to negotiate, and even Stephens had considered his mission a "humbug" from the outset. Regarding this there was not much need for master politician skills at this meeting.(02-15-2016 08:10 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Please keep in mind that it was a reply to Stephens "If slavery were abolished, what are we to do? I know that negroes will not work, unless forced to it, and I tell you that we shall all starve together."
(It seems Stephens either didn't know of those "honest, hard-working Southern people who never owned a slave and tilled the soil", or he didn't have much faith in them. It was just a question that left IMO no other reply. Should Lincoln have expressed pity instead?)
By the time this conversation took place, I think the Lincoln that I recognize as a master politician would have had some conciliatory reply dealing with plans that he hoped he and Congress could put in place to alleviate some of the dire circumstances that were facing the freedmen as well as the whites who had had their lands destroyed or confiscated.
When Confederate emissionary Hunter, speaking “at length, in rather congressional style,” urged “that the recognition of Mr. Davis’s power to make a treaty, was the first and indispensable step to peace” and referred “to the correspondence of King Charles the First, and his Parliament, as a reliable precedent, of a constitutional ruler, treating with rebels,” Lincoln remarked: “Upon questions of history, I must refer you to Mr. Seward, for he is posted in such things, and I don’t profess to be bright. My only distinct recollection of that matter is, that Charles lost his head.” That observation “settled Mr. Hunter for a while."
RE: Questions About John Brown - Eva Elisabeth - 02-16-2016 06:36 AM
(02-15-2016 08:12 PM)Gene C Wrote: This reminds me of a songThanks, Gene, for making me feel my posts and efforts are not to be taken for serious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uy_9Wvuc8Y
one by GrandPa Jones - it's pretty good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLH3jkQk8-E
of coarse there is a different song with the same title by The Harlem Hamfats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwnF2eMVpo4
Then there is the old June Carter song (wife of Johnny Cash)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4Elwdp0XA
and the Woody Guthrie song, but I don't care for that one.
RE: Questions About John Brown - L Verge - 02-16-2016 10:03 AM
QUOTE When Confederate emissionary Hunter, speaking “at length, in rather congressional style,” urged “that the recognition of Mr. Davis’s power to make a treaty, was the first and indispensable step to peace” and referred “to the correspondence of King Charles the First, and his Parliament, as a reliable precedent, of a constitutional ruler, treating with rebels,” Lincoln remarked: “Upon questions of history, I must refer you to Mr. Seward, for he is posted in such things, and I don’t profess to be bright. My only distinct recollection of that matter is, that Charles lost his head.” That observation “settled Mr. Hunter for a while." END QUOTE
And, unfortunately, Mr. Lincoln would lose his life also by seeming to take a different approach to what was to become another crisis in our country that has never been satisfactorily dealt with for all. If the River Queen meeting was going to be considered a sham from the beginning, why sail down the river at all?
This is what frustrates me about Lincoln and Reconstruction. With his talent for words and his political skills, I just can't believe that he was heading into restoring the Union with no key points on paper. It wasn't going to be about just the freedmen, it was also about hundreds of thousands of citizens who had built this country -- and that included labor forces in the North that would have to deal with both black and white men surging in their direction looking for opportunities to root hog or die.
The plight of the cities continues to plague our society and our economy.
RE: Questions About John Brown - Gene C - 02-16-2016 11:00 AM
One of the big complaints about Lincoln was that he moved to slow. He waited for the south to fire upon Ft Sumter, many people felt he was slow in replacing McClellan, slow to issue the Emancipation Proclamation. On the issue of reconstruction, his actions were probably also going to be considered slow and reactive instead of proactive.
He understood people, and knew this was going to be a long slow process.
Nothing has changed much in 150 years. You can only do so much for people. Sooner or later they have to decide to do something for themselves. Sometimes, that decision has to be forced upon them.
Just my opinion.
RE: Questions About John Brown - Thomas Kearney - 02-16-2016 12:13 PM
(02-15-2016 08:12 PM)Gene C Wrote: This reminds me of a song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uy_9Wvuc8Y
one by GrandPa Jones - it's pretty good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLH3jkQk8-E
of coarse there is a different song with the same title by The Harlem Hamfats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwnF2eMVpo4
Then there is the old June Carter song (wife of Johnny Cash)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4Elwdp0XA
and the Woody Guthrie song, but I don't care for that one.
All in favor for making Gene the symposium jukebox say "I".
RE: Questions About John Brown - Wild Bill - 02-16-2016 12:15 PM
OK, Laurie, I will pass on a bit of hearsay from my old mentor at LSU, T. Harry Williams.
He believed that Lincoln was angling for a deal with Radical Republicans in Congress in which they would endorse his wartime Reconstruction efforts in Louisiana, Arkansas, maybe Tennessee and perhaps Virginia already accomplished under the Ten Percent Plan and in exchange Lincoln would endorse a more severe Reconstruction of the rest of the South under something akin to the Wade-Davis Plan.
He bases his suppositions under his Wade-Davis pocket veto comments and the April 11, 1865 speech where he asks whether it would not be better of save the e.g. of his wartime Reconstruction rather than crush it. Other than that, your speaker who was to talk on Lincoln's Reconstruction ideas was correct to drop the subject as impossible to fathom--probably because Lincoln, as with so much, had no real plan.