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Claims Against the Catholic Church - L Verge - 11-23-2012 06:54 PM
In another thread on this forum (that I can't find right now), mention was made of Gen. Thomas Harris, a member of the military commission trying the Lincoln conspirators, who later wrote about his beliefs that the Catholic Church was behind the assassination. This brought back memories of reading books by others who claimed much the same thing. Emmett McLoughlin, Burke McCarty and Charles Chiniquy come immediately to mind.
In the case of Chiniquy, someone told me recently that his highly inflammatory book Fifty Years in the Church of Rome was just reprinted again this summer. It is amazing to me that there still exists great enough interest in this 19th-century work to demand another reprint.
I went online today to check it out and found a reference to a site, "Who Was Charles Chiniquy?" It's quite an interesting read about a man who trained for the Catholic priesthood and ended up a Presbyterian pastor. Chiniquy supposedly had a soft spot for Mr. Lincoln, who had defended him in a case against the church.
There is a section in the book dealing with the assassination, and it is very harsh on Mary and Anna Surratt, as well as John, of course. In one statement, Chiniquy says that, shortly after the assassination, Anna was heard to say that "the death of Abraham Lincoln is no more than the death of any n***** in the army." I would love to know who reported that, but my suspicions IF TRUE would have to point to Louis Weichmann.
In any case, Chiniquy comes down harshly on the Jesuit order of the Catholic Church. Of course, Maryland was a Catholic colony from the beginning and was heavily dominated by the Jesuits; therefore, Chiniquy had a good target to throw up for the rest of the world to speculate on - even though only three of the conspirators were Catholic -- the two Surratts and Dr. Mudd.
Anyhow, have a look at the site mentioned above to get a good idea of the rantings and ravings against the Catholics that were typical of 19th-century American thought. And, I am not a Catholic.
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - RJNorton - 11-24-2012 05:49 AM
Laurie, your suspicion was correct. See p. 179 of Weichman's book. He reports Anna as saying that at breakfast on the morning of the 15th. He quotes Anna as saying Lincoln's death "was no worse than that of the meanest n****r in the army."
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - Gene C - 11-24-2012 09:48 AM
Remember the "N" word did not have the degree of negative connotation that it now has. The use of the word in Huck Finn has no negative connotation (that I can remember) yet it is the reason so many schools will not allow Huck Finn in their library.
Why is it that taking God's name in vain and other profanity is not frowned upon as much as the use of the "N" word?
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - Craig Hipkins - 11-24-2012 10:27 AM
Chiniquy had a vendetta against the Catholic church after he was supposedly excommunicated by the Bishop of Chicago in the late 1850s. He hired Abraham Lincoln as his attorney after he was sued for libel, and Lincoln was able to work out an agreement with the other party.
His whole theory that the Catholic Church was (especially the Jesuit order) somehow responsible for the assassination of Lincoln is totally without merit. After reading his book Fifty Years in the Church of Rome it is hard to imagine that anyone today takes his claims seriously. Yet they do. Check out this link: http://www.chick.com/catalog/comic/0251.asp
Most of the evidence that Chiniquy uses is accusatory and he provides no proof. For instance, he claims that he met with Lincoln on three occasions after he became President. Lincoln was suppose to have told him of a Papal plot to take over the government of the United States. this information was supposedly given to Lincoln by none other than Samuel Morse.
Chiniquy also claimed that Lewis Powell, George Atzerodt and David Herold were all Roman Catholic converts, but he never presents the proof. He merely suggests that the Jesuits were "too shrewd" to let the three of them go to the gallows as Catholics.
Interesting stuff!
Craig
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - JMadonna - 11-24-2012 11:06 AM
One only needs to see the Davinci Code and read the requirements of ObamaCare on Catholic institutions to see that prejudice still exists.
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - L Verge - 11-24-2012 12:46 PM
I have only a smattering of knowledge on the warring of Italian states that was going on at the same time that the U.S. was in Civil War, but it doesn't seem to me that Pope Pius IX had extra time on his hands to plot the overthrow of the U.S. government.
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - JMadonna - 11-24-2012 03:48 PM
(11-24-2012 12:46 PM)L Verge Wrote: I have only a smattering of knowledge on the warring of Italian states that was going on at the same time that the U.S. was in Civil War, but it doesn't seem to me that Pope Pius IX had extra time on his hands to plot the overthrow of the U.S. government.
Pius IX was very concerned that Napoleon III would withdraw troops from Vatican City which was the only force between the city and the revolutionaries. Many Catholics were concerned (including John Surratt) and volunteered to help protect the Pope. Seward made a secret agreement with the Pope that the U.S. would grant him asylum in America if he needed to flee the country and kept a ship stationed close by for that purpose.
Good thing it wasn't necessary otherwise we'd have had a religious based war in this country. As it was it helped pave the way for Surratt's extradition even though Andrew Johnson didn't want him returned.
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - Craig Hipkins - 11-25-2012 12:02 AM
(11-24-2012 12:46 PM)L Verge Wrote: I have only a smattering of knowledge on the warring of Italian states that was going on at the same time that the U.S. was in Civil War, but it doesn't seem to me that Pope Pius IX had extra time on his hands to plot the overthrow of the U.S. government.
You are exactly right Laurie. Pope Pius IX was a busy man. He has been accused of many things. one of them being that he was the only head of state to formerly recognize the legitimacy of the Confederate government. In reality he merely addressed Davis as such only after Davis had initiated correspondence through an intermediary. Pius was only being respectful when he responded to Davis' letter.
Craig
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - Rogerm - 11-25-2012 09:13 AM
Thanks for for your statement about Pope Pius IX, Craig. I was wondering if any other sovereign nations had recognized the legitimacy of the Confederate government.
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - Craig Hipkins - 11-25-2012 09:18 PM
(11-25-2012 09:13 AM)Rogerm Wrote: Thanks for for your statement about Pope Pius IX, Craig. I was wondering if any other sovereign nations had recognized the legitimacy of the Confederate government.
I don't believe that any other nations ever formally recognized the Confederate States of America as a sovereign nation. In fact, Jefferson Davis' main motive for talking with the Holy See was not to get official recognition of his government, but to attempt to influence Pius' view of the conflict. He was keenly aware that the North was recruiting heavily from the Irish Catholics who supplied an almost unlimited amount of manpower to the Union cause. Davis knew that the Pope would never support the southern cause because of the slavery issue, however he thought that he might succeed in at least getting him to influence the American Bishops to lobby for an end to the war.
Craig
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - Laurie Verge - 11-26-2012 09:58 AM
Just a sidebar, but the Jesuit Order here in Southern Maryland owned slaves until 1843. So did Georgetown College. There were four large estates owned by the Church in Southern Prince George's, Charles, and St. Mary's Counties on Maryland's Western Shore and two estates on its Eastern Shore. Altogether, the six plantations had 12,000 acres.
One would assume that the slaves worked in the fields to provide food for the Jesuits and saleable items for profit. However, much of the wealth from slave-holding by the Church in Maryland came from slave breeding and sales to the South. When they finally dissolved the system, the Catholic Church gave the proceeds to high schools in New York and Philadelphia and also some to Fordham University.
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - Craig Hipkins - 11-27-2012 10:32 PM
Good information Laurie, I was unaware of this. This might explain some of the tension between the Vatican and the clergy in the United States before and during the war.
Craig
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - Laurie Verge - 11-28-2012 01:26 PM
I don't know whether other Southern states had Catholic influence related to slavery. Remember that Maryland was founded as a Catholic colony, so that gave the denomination a good foot in the door in the establishment of political and social values in the colony/state.
RE: Claims Against the Catholic Church - JMadonna - 11-28-2012 02:48 PM
(11-28-2012 01:26 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: I don't know whether other Southern states had Catholic influence related to slavery. Remember that Maryland was founded as a Catholic colony, so that gave the denomination a good foot in the door in the establishment of political and social values in the colony/state.
Being a Catholic and currently on vacation in Ga, I can tell you, finding an Alabama Crimson Tide fan would be easier than finding a Catholic church down here. I think the Church still considers this Missionary Territory.