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+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Breaking a leg (/thread-505.html)
RE: Breaking a leg - JMadonna - 12-03-2012 06:35 PM
(12-02-2012 01:25 PM)L Verge Wrote: First, I believe you have erroneously referred to Nothey throughout this explanation when you really meant Lloyd? Mr. Nothey lived a ways from the tavern.First of all you are correct that I mixed Nothey and Lloyd. It's not the first time I did that for some reason my mind freely substitutes one for the other.
According to John Lloyd, the shooting irons were ready because he had removed them earlier that evening and placed them in the adjacent bedroom. Do you believe that Mrs. Surratt is totally innocent of all charges?
Were the horses originally supposed to be at the tavern? First I've heard of that. As for your "hint" that they were in T.B. with the notorious rebel, Mr. Huntt, someday I will show you the letters that I have from Mr. Huntt in Baltimore to Mrs. Huntt in Southern Maryland written during the Baltimore Riots in which he deplores the secessionists. Also, Mrs. Huntt had introduced Methodism to her husband's family when they married and was of the anti-slavery persuasion (even though her father-in-law still retained his until 1864). Eli and Laura Huntt, however, lived in their own house without servants approximately three miles from his parents and their servants.
As for the distance from Surrattsville to Baltimore: With modern, straight, high-speed highways today, it still takes over an hour to make it to downtown Baltimore, which is approximately 60 miles north. Even with fresh horses, that would have been pushing it.
By the time he arrived in Baltimore, the telegraph would surely have been reporting that it was Booth for whom the authorities were searching and that he might be heading for his hometown. Also Baltimore had been heavily fortified with troops throughout the war. Booth's picture was distributed shortly after the deed (for those days), and he was more likely to be quickly recognized in Baltimore and points north than in Southern Maryland.
We are never going to reconcile our differences in opinion, Jerry, because the facts are just not there. It's really fun (at least for me) to hypothesize on what could have happened, but after awhile, I think we do history a disservice if we don't produce tangible evidence.
Secondly, I do not believe Mary Surratt was innocent of all charges. I believe that Lloyd was lying to save his butt. Mary Surratt claimed he was a liar BUT since she was hanged does that mean Lloyd was truthful? Herold took the rifle but does that mean that was his prime objective?
Just because something happened doesn't mean it was planned to happen that way.
I believe that Booth planned a change of horses not guns. You are more concerned about what happened. I am concerned about what was planned to have occurred.
That's our difference.
RE: Breaking a leg - L Verge - 12-03-2012 07:41 PM
And until you can provide proof that those plans existed, it's time to end this "conversation," I do believe.
RE: Breaking a leg - JMadonna - 12-04-2012 09:22 PM
(12-03-2012 07:41 PM)L Verge Wrote: And until you can provide proof that those plans existed, it's time to end this "conversation," I do believe.
Nonsense!
The horses existed because they were the key to the kidnapping plot weeks earlier. They were ready to go when the plot fell apart. What happened to them? Because they weren't used in the assassination does that make them non-existant? If they didn't exist then the kidnapping plot didn't exist. Which one is it?
Let me ask you a question. Booth stepped in to the assassination when the mining of the White House plot failed. Booth seemed to be privy to those plans. Do you think that if it succeeded that the New York Crowd would have gone South like Booth did to make their escape? Carefull now there is no historical evidence to go by - you'll have to make an assumption.
IMO the answer would be a resounding no. We know there were confederate safehouses set up all the way North, the south was not the only place with a secret line. But Booth didn't follow that path, not because he thought the way south was the better route but because he broke his leg.
As to your point that the Southern line did a good job in protecting Booth lets take a closer look. You said Herold's mission was to tell people that 'something big was going to happen' kind of like a civil war Paul Revere. If you have tangible proof of that claim he certainly did a lousy job since everyone seemed surprised by the news and Booth's appearance. They let him shiver in the woods for days with no shelter and they took his horses, in return they gave him food, water and newspapers. In short he was treated like a dog and in the end they put him in a rowboat at night and said good-bye. Not exactly Southern hospitality.
Secondly as to your point that he would have been immediately picked up in Baltimore because of the telegraph, let me remind you that Baltimore was the most 'southern' city in the Union. Four years earlier the police chief conspired to have Lincoln assassinated. IMO If they knew Booth was coming they probably would have given him a parade. The only way he would have been stopped is if they stopped all train traffic going through Baltimore, which they did not do - Also, maybe you know better but, I did not find anyone arrested for looking like Booth in Baltimore that day.
What we do know of Booth's big southern escape plan was simply to "find Moseby" - that IMO was no plan that was a 'Hail Mary'.
RE: Breaking a leg - wsanto - 12-05-2012 12:15 PM
I believe that Booth got the cold-shoulder treatment during his escape because his southern line of support was surprised by the assassination. They were willing to help with the kidnapping plot but probably had misgivings on abetting the assassination.
They helped, to a degree, from loyalty, but they all were trying to avoid spending any significant time with Booth because they knew that Union soldiers would be close behind.
Dr. Mudd paid a huge price abetting Booth and the others were smart to not let him stay in their houses.
If Booth had escaped into Baltimore and further north to New York and/or Canada he probably would have had an even more difficult time with southern sympathizers surprised by his decision to increase the stakes with assassination.
I doubt there would have been a parade.
RE: Breaking a leg - Gene C - 12-05-2012 12:33 PM
I agree with everything written above by wsanto plus...Booth's timing was off. If he had acted before Richmond had fallen and before Lee's surrender, he might have met with more receptive southern support. He probably got more sympathy and help due to the broken leg than he would have without it.
RE: Breaking a leg - Laurie Verge - 12-05-2012 12:40 PM
First of all, we have only the Atzerodt/Smoot claim that horses were to be made ready in T.B. for the kidnapping. It is my understanding that those horses were to be used for pulling the President's carriage at that time, since it required a lot more horsepower to pull a heavy vehicle for twenty miles than it did to carry a human. Since the assassination did not require the vehicle, it didn't require the relay of horses.
I guess you are also assuming that the New York Crowd is now the brains behind the assassination? Since Harney was receiving help from Mosby in his efforts to get to D.C. to mine the White House, do you assume that Mosby was working for the New York Crowd and not the Confederate bad guys? Also, why would you assume that the Crowd would need to escape south? They were in Union friendly territory and could stay put - or hightail it into Canada if necessary.
As for the Secret Line in Southern Maryland: 95% of the people in general in that area had had their homes and property searched periodically over the past four years. It wouldn't be me who took in two fugitive assassins in order for them to get a good night's sleep in a soft bed. Of course, Dr. Mudd did - and allowed them to stay for over twelve hours. I wonder how many other patients of the doctor got such special treatment. Cox and Jones were smarter. It's harder to find someone in a wide tract of forest land and also easier to move them if need be under cover of trees instead of wide open fields.
And speaking of moving, Jones wisely waited until he had a clear shot of getting the pair out into the river without a heavy concentration of troops in the area. This opportunity came when reports went out that two people had been seen crossing in the area of St. Mary's County. Off went the troops and out came Jones, Booth, and Herold headed for the river. Evidence suggests that the two crossing in the vicinity of St. Mary's may well have been two members of the Secret Line sent out as decoys. Night was the logical time to attempt to cross the Potomac, and Jones had done his duty and went home to his motherless children.
Briefly, my views on Baltimore are based exactly on the fact that it was a Southern city and had been throughout the war. Because of that, it had a high concentration of Federal troops and a high concentration of telegraph lines (remember that the first message ever sent via telegraph was sent from the Mount Clare Station in Baltimore to D.C.). It would have been logical for the Feds to assume that Booth was headed to his home territory or to Philadelphia (wasn't Asia there?) or New York City to investigate Edwin (was he there?).
I have to say for myself and (I suspect) others on this forum that I just don't know what else to say except that your opinion and my opinion are never going to mesh, and I think that it's time to call a halt to the "what ifs."
RE: Breaking a leg - Laurie Verge - 12-05-2012 05:08 PM
Forgot to mention that wsanto and Gene made two very good points. Also, remember that the people of Southern Maryland had suffered during the war, but not to the extent that the Virginians had. The rejection of Booth is much more apparent once he gets to Virginia because those people knew the end had come and they wanted no more grief.
RE: Breaking a leg - JMadonna - 12-05-2012 08:55 PM
Ok, let me sum up our disagreements and call it a day – you can correct me where I misspeak:
1.The escape route:
A. South – Your proof that Booth planned to go South as his route of escape is based upon the kidnapping plot and that it was the route he took. To make this claim work as the route Booth always planned to use, one has to make the following assumption – Booth was totally unaware that conditions changed drastically since the kidnapping plot because the destination of that plot was Richmond. This is highly unlikely since it was pretty well known that Richmond fell and Davis was fleeing for his life. Therefore, if Richmond was not his destination, what was? Please fill in this blank, if possible.
B. North – I have no tangible proof that Booth planned to flee north but I do have precedence. The noted spy Stringfellow used the northern route to safety the week before and as you have mentioned the ‘New York Crowd’ would have probably used a similar route to New York and then to Canada. It was a proven commodity that provided a destination of refuge.
2. The Missions of Herold and Mary Surratt.
A. All we know for certain about the Herold mission was that he was in the TB area the day before, so your guess is as good as mine. You say he was there to spread the word, I say he was there to locate the horses.
B. Mary Surratt – All we have about her conversation with Lloyd is what Lloyd told authorities. I’m sure it is correct as far as it goes but there had to be more. Her job, IMO was to get everything in order for the escape. You simply don’t get a 19th century devout Catholic woman to skip services on the holiest day of the year to give only the ‘shooting irons’ message. The guns were already at the tavern, to get them ‘ready’ would have taken only a minute or two. The important logistic missing was the horses. If Herold related to Booth where they were located - then for Mrs. Surrat to tell Lloyd to have them ready would have justified her trip.
3. The location of the broken leg.
Fortunately, we both agree the leg was broken our disagreement is where. You insist on believing Booth’s account even though you know his diary is demonstrably false in a number of claims. There are no witnesses to back the claim, the physical evidence that the horse was injured in a fall and the impossibility of mounting a horse with a broken leg has had no affect upon your view. This is probably the reason you reject Richert’s theory that Booth picked up a hat, gun and holster at the Surratt house in Washington after the shooting. Fine and dandy, you are entitled to your view.
But my view is that the weight of evidence is much greater that the injury occurred after he crossed the bridge, and because of it history was changed.
The injury caused Booth to alter his escape plan and seek medical help from a man he hadn’t talked to in 4 months. Booth’s plan had to include changing horses for the simple reason that the ones he was riding were stolen and could be used to identify him. I believe he planned to change horses at the tavern and tell Lloyd to release the stolen horses further down the road towards TB. Then while the feds were following the bread crumbs he left he would be long gone in the opposite direction. The injury caused him to keep the stolen horses because changing them would have pointed to the direction he was now actually going.
We all know the poem about for want of a nail a horse was lost, then a message, a battle, a war and a country. The escape story is quite similar and shows how important events in history can change on the smallest detail.
Because a horse tripped in the middle of the night Booth was unable to escape North. And all those conspirators that Payne referred to in his claim ‘you haven’t got half of them’, were able to escape unscathed.
Good discussion.
RE: Breaking a leg - L Verge - 12-05-2012 09:08 PM
I can continue to personally refute some of the things that you just posted. However, I just don't have the energy to keep doing this ad nauseum, and I also want to take pity on other members of this forum who are probably very tired of our "battle." You posit your way, and I'll posit my way ("and I'll be in Scotland afore ye" - isn't there a Scottish ditty along those lines?).
RE: Breaking a leg - John Stanton - 12-06-2012 12:30 AM
I am busy elsewhere, but I want to "cherp" before you shut down. I can't agree on some of your logic. Your facts are good. You are using the same logic that Bill Tidwell used. "If you can't disprove my guess, then I must be right." (We had words on that). I cannot offer an answer. All I'm saying is there may be another solution to many statements made here, that we don't know about. Personally, I lean toward the "plan", that there was no "plan". After the failure to mine the White House, Booth had to act fast, so he incorporated as much of the old plan as he was able. He goofed that plan too. Somewhere I read that Herold said that they were supposed to go down the "Bumpy Oak Road" through Southern Mardyand, They didn't. IMO each agent on the Secret Line, aka "The Doctor Line", fed the two men, but pushed them out the back door as fast as possible. They didn't want anything to do with them. Thomas Jones would not give them a hot meal in his own house. (Lame excuse # 77). The feature of the Secret Line, was to hand off the travelers rom one person to another person, but Jones sent Booth to a Tree[u],and told him to wait there, somebody MIGHT help you. Mrs. Q was not the Goal, she was the last resort. Jones knew that the Virginia side was disrupted and wasn't sure if anyone would help. He knew that all these agents had been in Richmond for a briefing on the abduction, in late March, early April. He said he went to collect his pay for the past 2 years, (Lame excuse # 107). Grymes went, so did Cawood. Cawood extended his trip in order to visit his wife in Manchester - across the James from Richmond. (Cawood had a son born in Dec. - count that up on your fingers.) We are told that Booth planned to cross the Potomac from the Nanjemoy and land near Cedar Grove. From there to Cleydael, on to Charles Mason, on to McDaniel, down "301" to Port Royal. He trusted that rt. and the people. So. when Jones put him in the boat with the hope "that someone might help him" Booth headed up river to the Nanjemoy. When he got there he found that he was persona non grata to that team, They didn't help. Quote Herold "He then crossed the river, to Virginia, passed a gunboat (actually it was the Nanjemoy Lightship) and landed on Mathias Point" - at Cawood'sCamp. But Cawood was in Manchester. He got back in the Boat, dodged a gunboat (The Juniper), arrived at the Gambo,(Another Lightship) and waited at the tree. You know the rest. Does that sound like he had a plan? He knew people, he knew where things were planted for his use, he knew Doctors, - maybe Davey had a plan.
RE: Breaking a leg - Craig Hipkins - 12-06-2012 08:32 AM
Interesting dialogue between Laurie and Jerry here. I am ambivalent about whether or not Booth had a plan after assassinating the president. If he did, it must have been a hasty one since he did not know that Lincoln would be at Ford's until late that morning.It is impossible to get into the mind of Booth and therefore we have no way of knowing exactly what he had in mind as to a possible escape route. I am curious to see how many people on this forum believe that he intended to go south where he knew he had friends? Or if he had intended to go north.
Craig
RE: Breaking a leg - J. Beckert - 12-06-2012 08:56 AM
It's been very interesting, Craig and Jerry always has interesting "what ifs", but I'm going with heading south. The North was intact after the war. The South was decimated. It seems to me that there was a better chance to escape South where lines of communication were sporadically disrupted and Booth (mistakenly) thought he'd be perceived as a hero there. Travelling northward through major cities that had no wounds from the war seems too risky.
RE: Breaking a leg - Dawn E Foster - 12-06-2012 09:07 AM
(12-06-2012 08:32 AM)Craig Hipkins Wrote: Interesting dialogue between Laurie and Jerry here. I am ambivalent about whether or not Booth had a plan after assassinating the president. If he did, it must have been a hasty one since he did not know that Lincoln would be at Ford's until late that morning.It is impossible to get into the mind of Booth and therefore we have no way of knowing exactly what he had in mind as to a possible escape route. I am curious to see how many people on this forum believe that he intended to go south where he knew he had friends? Or if he had intended to go north.
Craig
South for me too.
RE: Breaking a leg - RJNorton - 12-06-2012 09:31 AM
(12-05-2012 08:55 PM)JMadonna Wrote: All we know for certain about the Herold mission was that he was in the TB area the day before, so your guess is as good as mine.
This is off topic, and I apologize to all. Jerry and Laurie have both talked about Herold on the 13th. My question is what did the prosecution have on him regarding his activities in Washington on the 14th? Offhand I can think of two prosecution witnesses....Fletcher and Cobb....that place him in Washington on the 14th. I cannot think of any prosecution witnesses that saw him at the Seward Home, the Surratt boardinghouse, Ford's Theatre, the Herndon House, or the Kirkwood House. Maybe there were, but my mind is a blank right now. Did Herold do anything more than run off with Fletcher's horse and give a false name to Cobb? What else did the prosecution show he did on the 14th?
RE: Breaking a leg - Gene C - 12-06-2012 09:39 AM
South, If he was planning to go north, he wouldn't need Davy.