+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden (/thread-299.html)
Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - John Stanton - 08-31-2012 09:34 PM
On Jan. 23. 1865, "Sgt. Harry Brogden, and all the men serving with him were detached for Special Service" and were to report to Sec. of State, J.P. Benjamin". Brogden was physically moved to Richmond, but none of the others were - because the Camp continued, as before. WHat could have been the reason for this? Who was left in charge of the camp, even though it was referred to as Brogden's camp? If there was a plan, it appears that it was never activated. This puzzles me - Why disturb a Good Thing?
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - L Verge - 09-01-2012 11:55 AM
My guess: The action plan was being put in place for the capture of Abraham Lincoln, and Brogden's men were part of the relay team of getting the President to Richmond?
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - John Stanton - 09-01-2012 01:18 PM
(09-01-2012 11:55 AM)L Verge Wrote: My guess: The action plan was being put in place for the capture of Abraham Lincoln, and Brogden's men were part of the relay team of getting the President to Richmond?
Laurie. Does that mean that Benjamin was in charge of the abduction? If so, then wouldn't it have been better to have the best man for the job, on site, and in charge - Brogden. But Brogden was moved to Richmond. Since I have asked you guys "to think", I have done some serious pondering of my own. If you wanted help from the Confederacy, then you crossed here. A "passport" consisted of two letters -one fron the Sec. of State, and one from the Secret Service. There was still the option to swim the river, or cross in a home-made rubber boat -like Kensey Johns Stuart did., but they got no help , such as an escort to the nearest train and they were subject to arrest or deportation. Here is an option to consider. Putting the Camp uner Benjamin, gave him control, and a record, of everyone who entered of left the Confederacy. This may have been a problem to Benjamin. That guy Hebb was sent here in the fall of '64, to patrol the river and arrest any soldier attempting to desert the confederacy.
(Sarah Slater coming down from Canada had to wire ahead to get a passport, in Jan. '65. Sarah went North without a passport, but couldn't get back.) It appears that the passport Idea was born about htis time. Come to think of it - Sarah did have a pass. Rev. S. Cameron got permission to go to Canada, in Nov, with "Tho friends".
In another story he described them a women, dressed as Catholic Nuns. (At this time, Dec. '64, Sarah and Josephine Brown showed up in Canada.) I'm pondering some more as I write. In Summary, Benjamin then knew who was South and who was North, and when they crossed and Brogden was in Richmond to keep track of it. Maybe the info was sent in Code and Brogden decoded it. Any other ideas?
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - L Verge - 09-01-2012 05:08 PM
I suspect Judah Benjamin of having many devious plans - including a hand in the capture of Lincoln. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't understand why passes would be needed for seven men and a captured Lincoln to be landed in Virginia???
I can understand why the Confederacy wanted to stop deserters by demanding passes; I never realized that the men like Atzerodt and Jones who ferried people under cover of night across the river would be asking for passes before they would start rowing???
Guess I'm going to have to spend the winter re-reading Come Retribution and April '65. I've taken a lot of heat for supporting the Tidwell, Hall, Gaddy theories over the past twenty years. Maybe it's because I was raised military, but their reasonings about the whole Lincoln capture/assassination stories are the ones that make the most sense.
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - John Stanton - 09-01-2012 10:06 PM
(09-01-2012 05:08 PM)L Verge Wrote: I suspect Judah Benjamin of having many devious plans - including a hand in the capture of Lincoln. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't understand why passes would be needed for seven men and a captured Lincoln to be landed in Virginia???
I can understand why the Confederacy wanted to stop deserters by demanding passes; I never realized that the men like Atzerodt and Jones who ferried people under cover of night across the river would be asking for passes before they would start rowing???
Guess I'm going to have to spend the winter re-reading Come Retribution and April '65. I've taken a lot of heat for supporting the Tidwell, Hall, Gaddy theories over the past twenty years. Maybe it's because I was raised military, but their reasonings about the whole Lincoln capture/assassination stories are the ones that make the most sense.
Laurie. I am the dense one. I did not write my thoughts clearly. Brogden's camp was under Benjamin, and Benjamin wrote the Passport rules. Cawood's Camp (The Tennant Farm) was not bound by Benjamin's rules. So, Jones sent Booth to "A Bridge", to wait to be found. If none came, then see Mrs Q. "I THINK SHE WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU. Atzerodt was aware of the rules. He took Gus Howell, Slater, and Fowle to the Tennant Farm. Fowell said he left immediately and Howell and Slater stuck around a few days. From Tennant's on, they were on their own - no help
I am not contradicting anything in "C.R". You know I was "Trained" by that trio. I even have parts in "C. R." The abducted Lincoln was to cross from the Nanjemoy to an area further up river from cawood - No Passport needed. It is difficult putting this info into a nut shell.
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - L Verge - 09-02-2012 10:17 AM
OK, now it makes sense to me. I also want to know more about James Fowle. I see him mentioned quite a bit in the Hall and Tidwell papers, but am too lazy to research his role.
And yes, I know that you are a disciple of Tidwell, Hall, and Gaddy and are carrying on their work - god bless you.
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - John Stanton - 09-02-2012 09:18 PM
(09-02-2012 10:17 AM)L Verge Wrote: OK, now it makes sense to me. I also want to know more about James Fowle. I see him mentioned quite a bit in the Hall and Tidwell papers, but am too lazy to research his role.
And yes, I know that you are a disciple of Tidwell, Hall, and Gaddy and are carrying on their work - god bless you.
James Fowle was a courier for the Confederacy. He did us a great favor when he testified at the Boutwell Hearings -1866. He tells us about the TWOSecret Services. One in the State Dept. and one in the War Dept. and that Agents did not know what other Agents were doing. They kept to themselves. Most of this is in "C.R." (that's handy and concise). I have the Boutwell Hearings (T'was expensive) When you get time I will lend it to the Research Center to copy.
Fowle was a young guy who died a little afetr the war. His sister was married to a Tayloe, who lived at "Clifton", (now called "Chatterton")
(We can visit??) Recognize "Benjamin Ogle Tayloe"? He lived next to Sec. Seward in D.C. He ran a spy ring all his own. His sister gave Fowle a "Safe House" in K.G. all his own. Fowle names some specific people who worked for the South, and were never found.
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - L Verge - 09-03-2012 11:21 AM
The Ogles and the Tayloes were all part of Washington's and Maryland's high society from the earliest years. In fact, an Ogle was once Governor of Maryland, and their magnificent private home still exists as a historic house museum in Prince George's County. Their roots ran deep in Southern culture.
Thanks for the offer, but the James O. Hall Research Center has a copy of the Boutwell Report. Mr. Hall brought it to my attention years ago. I have to admit that keeping up with my routine work at Surratt House does not leave me time to bury myself in the Hall and Tidwell files.
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - BettyO - 09-03-2012 06:33 PM
Thanks for the info Laurie and John!
I had forgotten about the Ogles and Tayloes - I was wondering just how much the Tayloe family knew of their neighbors, the Sewards. With Mr. Tayloe being so closely affiliated with the Southern Cause, how would he have felt about the Sewards? I know that Mr. Tayloe was one of the first into the Seward house after Lew Powell's attack. And one of the Tayloe's servants had seen Lew Powell ride away from Seward's house.
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - HerbS - 09-06-2012 01:58 PM
Then perhaps this information of two Secret Services.One being from the State Department might explain Seward's Communication with Aiken! I found those letters in the University of Rochester's "Seward Collection".The only thing we can do with that information is "Speculate"!
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - John Stanton - 09-06-2012 10:28 PM
(09-06-2012 01:58 PM)HerbS Wrote: Then perhaps this information of two Secret Services.One being from the State Department might explain Seward's Communication with Aiken! I found those letters in the University of Rochester's "Seward Collection".The only thing we can do with that information is "Speculate"!
HerbS. Maybe you have stumbled on to something. Brogden was a Confederate, but you reference Federals. What did you find at UofR?
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - HerbS - 09-07-2012 07:51 AM
John,I found that Aiken and Seward did communicate with each other about"current Issues" in 1861-1862-1863.My question is why did Seward have the need to communicate with Aiken years before the Assassination? Who was Aiken really working for?The "Current Issues"were-Keep the South from taking Calafornia-and-"Watch out for Brigham Young and his people".Did Seward think that he was President?
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - Laurie Verge - 09-07-2012 11:01 AM
I'm sure that Seward did still think he was better qualified to be President - even as late as 1863. However, wouldn't topics like keeping California in the Union and watching out for Brigham Young come under the purview of the State Department? Today, we think of it mainly as a foreign affairs post, but I think it encompasses the state of things in the Union also.
RE: Sgt. Harry H, Brogden - HerbS - 09-07-2012 12:31 PM
You are correct Laurie.That's why this whole thing with Aiken and Seward has become such an historical enigma to me.