+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Who's good at tracking obscure details? (/thread-2860.html)
Pages: 1 2
Who's good at tracking obscure details? - L Verge - 02-11-2016 08:16 PM
In the past week, I've heard two interesting "factoids" that need proving: Betty O emailed us that a book she is reading said that F. Scott Fitzgerald's father (Edward) was about 10 years old during the Civil War and that he used to help Thomas Jones.
Edward was born in 1853 in Montgomery County, Maryland, and is on the family tree of both the prestigious Key (think Francis Scott Key) family and the notable Scott family. John Surratt, Jr's wife, Mary Victorine Hunter, is on the same family tree, but many of the online sites try to put Mary Surratt on the tree - actually they are correct, but they never distinguish that the "Mary" is actually the daughter-in-law of "our" Mary.
But I digress. I cannot get Edward Fitzgerald out of Montgomery County and into Charles County to be near Thomas Jones during the war. There are Key families that go way back in Southern Maryland, but most of them were in nearby St. Mary's County. Was little Eddie living with relatives? How did he know and help Jones? Help! I've asked Betty for the citation in that book she's reading, and hopefully she'll send it soon.
Second quandry: My aide, Joan Chaconas, walked into my office today and said that she had just read that a blind beggar was one of those who testified against Mary Surratt at the trial. How do we find his name? It's the first time that either of us had ever heard that.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - Susan Higginbotham - 02-11-2016 10:24 PM
I don't know about the beggar part, but a blind man did testify at the trial, although not against Mary in particular. From Poore's transcript:
SAMUEL P. JONES (blind),
a witness called for the prosecution, being duly sworn, testified as follows:—
By the JUDGE ADVOCATE:
Q. Have you resided in Richmond at any time during the war?
A. I have.
Q. State any conversations you may have heard there, to which officers of the Rebel Government were parties, in regard to the contemplated assassination of the President of the United States.
A. The nearest I know any thing to that point among the officers there is their common conversation in camp, as I would go about amongst them; and their conversations would be of this nature: That all suspicious persons, or those kind of people they were not certain were of their way of thinking, they would hush up as soon as they came near them. But, after I found out what I could learn in reference to these things, they were desperately anxious that any such as this should be accomplished.
Q. Will you state any particular occasion?
A. In a general way, I have heard sums offered, to be paid with a Confederate sum, for any person or persons to go North and assassinate the President.
[43]
Q. Do you remember any occasion when such offers were made, or any amount named, and by what kind of officers?
A. At this moment, I cannot tell you the particular names of shoulder-straps, &c.
Q. Do you remember any occasion,—some dinner occasion?
A. I can tell you this. I heard a citizen make the remark once, that he would give from his private purse $10,000, in addition to the Confederate amount, to have the President assassinated,—to bring him to Richmond, dead or alive, for proof.
Q. What was meant by that phrase, “In addition to the Confederate amount”?
A. I know nothing about that, any more than the way they would express it. I should judge, from drawing an inference, that there was any amount offered by the Government, in that trashy paper, to assassinate any officials that were hindering their cause; and even I have heard it down as low as a private or citizen. For instance, if it is not digressing from the purpose, I know of a Ken-tuckian, but cannot tell you the name now, that was putting up at the Exchange Hotel, or otherwise Ballard House (they belong to the same property, and are connected by a bridge over Franklin Street). He was arrested under suspicion of being a spy. I can tell you the name now: his name was Webster, if I remember rightly. I always supposed, from what I understood, that he came down to buy goods; but they took him as a spy, and hung him. Whether it was in reference to this assassination, I cannot say.
Q. I understood you to say that it was a subject of general conversation among the rebel officers?
A. It was. The rebel officers, as they would be sitting around their tent-doors, would be conversing on such a subject a great deal. They would be saying they would like to see his head brought there, dead or alive, and they should think it could be done; and I have heard such things stated as that they had certain persons undertaking it.
I can poke around for the Edward Fitzgerald thing if I have the citation.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - L Verge - 02-12-2016 10:42 AM
Thank you so much, Susan! I wish I could put you on payroll! BTW: We now have your book, Hanging Mary, in the Surratt gift shop. $15.99 + $3 postage. Susan will be signing at the Surratt conference in April.
As for the Edward Fitzgerald issue, I think I solved that once I received the citation. It is an interview with F. Scott Fitzgerald from a British newspaper. However, it does not mention Thomas Jones. Fitzgerald says that his father was from Montgomery County, Maryland -- which I knew and which was causing me the problem. That county is over fifty miles or more from Thomas Jones's territory in Charles County. Why would young Eddie be so far from home during the Civil War?
He wasn't; he was still living in Montgomery County and helping to row people across the Potomac (which runs through Montgomery also). There were a number of places to sneak across the river up there. Again, that's Jim Garrett's neighborhood, so he might pick up the story of such river crossings. So young Eddie Fitzgerald may have been a river runner, but not an assistant to Thomas Jones.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - Jim Garrett - 02-12-2016 04:09 PM
I've been digging around the Edward Fitzgerald side of your question. The best I can determine is that Edward may have grown up on a family farm, Locust Grove. In that case, he may have also been related to another old Montgomery county family, the Magruders. Locust Grove has been preserved (house only) By park and planning and is adjacent to Montgomery Mall on Lakeside Terrace.
I think the Thomas Jones connection may be an embellishment.
Correction.....Edward Fitzgerald was born on Glenmary farm near Rockville, not far from Locust Grove. Will try to pinpoint where Glenmary my have once stood.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - SSlater - 02-12-2016 04:45 PM
Hi Laurie. As usual, we differ.
The Potomac flows PAST Montgomery County, 15 miles from Frederick, where Edward Fitzgerald lived. I can't see him capable of walking to the river and then paddle across and back, and get home, at 10 or 12 years old. The closest point for him is called "POINT OF ROCKS" . At that point the river narrows and picks up speed, with high rocks on both sides Today, Rt. 15 crosses right there. Would you trust a 10 year old to get you across the Potomac? He may have helped Jones by sending travelers down river - to cross where Rt. 301 -crosses and Mr. Jones will put you across, cheap!
Your notes don't say he helped Jones before 1865. They might have met later. For example: Edward was a student at Georgetown University (in D.C.) in the 1870's. They could have met in that era.
Maybe when Jones was "visiting" the jails up there.
I like an "assignment" like this. I don't pick an answer, and then try to prove it. I try to read the facts and hopefully build an answer.
Here is an example: Samuel P. Jones, was he BLIND? He may have been, by the time he got to Court, but during the war HE COULD SEE!
He knew he was listening to OFFICERS. He knew what their collar pins LOOKED LIKE. They didn't tell us if he was White, So far, we have proven he was not BLIND, and we question if he was a Beggar. I found a Samuel P. Jones, living in Richmond during and after the war, who was a Waiter. He could have easily overheard OFFICERS talking as he served dinner. I don't question Jones - I question whoever it was that wrote the report. I only wonder if Freed-black-men would be allowed to Testify. (Rules changed after the War or it didn't matter)
I need a lot more info, before I can offer an answer.
Jim Garrett slipped an reply in while I was typing Comment: The closest the River is to Rockville, is
GREAT FALLS. Edwards didn.t cross there
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - L Verge - 02-13-2016 01:42 PM
I'll let you and Jim argue over where Eddie Fitzgerald grew up. By his previous post, it seems that Jim found the family farm near Rockville in Montgomery County, a good distance from Frederick in Frederick County. My personal opinion is that either Eddie or his son F. Scott fabricated the Civil War story. Both men had a drinking problem (and other related problems).
Jim - Is Eddie buried in the Fitzgerald church lot in Rockville?
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - PaigeBooth - 02-13-2016 06:47 PM
(02-11-2016 08:16 PM)L Verge Wrote: In the past week, I've heard two interesting "factoids" that need proving: Betty O emailed us that a book she is reading said that F. Scott Fitzgerald's father (Edward) was about 10 years old during the Civil War and that he used to help Thomas Jones.
Edward was born in 1853 in Montgomery County, Maryland, and is on the family tree of both the prestigious Key (think Francis Scott Key) family and the notable Scott family. John Surratt, Jr's wife, Mary Victorine Hunter, is on the same family tree, but many of the online sites try to put Mary Surratt on the tree - actually they are correct, but they never distinguish that the "Mary" is actually the daughter-in-law of "our" Mary.
But I digress. I cannot get Edward Fitzgerald out of Montgomery County and into Charles County to be near Thomas Jones during the war. There are Key families that go way back in Southern Maryland, but most of them were in nearby St. Mary's County. Was little Eddie living with relatives? How did he know and help Jones? Help! I've asked Betty for the citation in that book she's reading, and hopefully she'll send it soon.
Second quandry: My aide, Joan Chaconas, walked into my office today and said that she had just read that a blind beggar was one of those who testified against Mary Surratt at the trial. How do we find his name? It's the first time that either of us had ever heard that.
I am a huge F. Scott Fitzgerald fan. I truly enjoy studying Fitzgerald's life and ancestors. So, I would just like to take a moment to explain the family connection between F. Scott Fitzgerald, his father, Edward, and Mary Victorine Hunter.
First, Laurie is absolutely correct about Mary Surratt being confused with Mary Victorine Hunter. There are many websites that say Mary Surratt was F. Scott Fitzgerald's first cousin once removed. That is not true. It is Mary Victorine Hunter who was F. Scott Fitzgerald's first cousin once removed.
Attached is a family tree that I made. I had a great time putting this together. It will give you a visual of the family connection.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - L Verge - 02-13-2016 08:44 PM
Thank you, Paige! This is so much easier to follow than the complicated tree that the family gave us with at least 50-75 names to sort through.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - RJNorton - 02-14-2016 05:27 AM
(02-13-2016 06:47 PM)PaigeBooth Wrote: First, Laurie is absolutely correct about Mary Surratt being confused with Mary Victorine Hunter. There are many websites that say Mary Surratt was F. Scott Fitzgerald's first cousin once removed. That is not true. It is Mary Victorine Hunter who was F. Scott Fitzgerald's first cousin once removed.
Thanks, Paige. Wikipedia was one of these many websites that said that. Last week I edited the Wikipedia website by deleting this information from its Mary Surratt article. But the next day the editors of Wikipedia replaced what I deleted with, "She (Mary Surratt) was a first cousin, once removed, of novelist F. Scott Fitzgerald's father Edward Fitzgerald."
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - L Verge - 02-14-2016 02:39 PM
Hi Laurie. As usual, we differ.
The Potomac flows PAST Montgomery County, 15 miles from Frederick, where Edward Fitzgerald lived. I can't see him capable of walking to the river and then paddle across and back, and get home, at 10 or 12 years old. The closest point for him is called "POINT OF ROCKS" . At that point the river narrows and picks up speed, with high rocks on both sides Today, Rt. 15 crosses right there. Would you trust a 10 year old to get you across the Potomac? He may have helped Jones by sending travelers down river - to cross where Rt. 301 -crosses and Mr. Jones will put you across, cheap!
Your notes don't say he helped Jones before 1865. They might have met later. For example: Edward was a student at Georgetown University (in D.C.) in the 1870's. They could have met in that era.
Maybe when Jones was "visiting" the jails up there.
I'm going to disagree again, SSlater. I believe that the Potomac River forms the western boundary of Montgomery County, Maryland, and divides it from Loudoun County, Virginia. That's a big reason why the Feds sent about 20,000 troops into Montgomery to guard both the river and the C&O Canal. There were several places to ford the river, including one where a ferry still plods across every day. Its name today is White's Ferry, but I think it had a different name then. The modern American Legion Bridge may be where another Civil War crossing was. There might have been another around Seneca. Again, Jim Garrett and Rick Smith are natives of that area and can comment further.
I traveled nearly the length of Maryland for four years en route from Southern Maryland to college in the mountains of Maryland near Cumberland -- and I drove them before the days of the Interstates. 4-5 hours one way each time. Montgomery County was largely farmland, forests, and little villages back then (the 1960s, not the 1860s). Sometimes I took the train, and it was really the boondocks that it ran through.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - Dennis Urban - 02-14-2016 07:18 PM
I also grew up in that area and have walked and biked the C&O Canal from Georgetown to the Monacacy Aqueduct and river. The Potomac River is the western boundary of Montgomery County, MD. Loudoun County, VA is across from Montgomery County, MD at White's Ferry, named Conrad's Ferry in CW times. White's Ford is a few miles north of the ferry. Folks frequently think the ferry and ford are one and the same but they are not. Conrad's Ferry is several hundred yards above the northern tip of Harrison's Island which was the Federal troops crossing point for the Battle of Balls Bluff (10-21-1861). The ferry still operates and is the only modern crossing point from the American Legion Bridge to Point of Rocks. Just south of Harrison's Island is Edward's Ferry another Federal crossing point for Ball's Bluff and later. I am unaware of any crossing point at Seneca or at the site of the current American Legion Bridge. The river at Seneca is quite wide and begins to run swiftly. It is not fordable at Seneca. The river gorge is much narrower at the site of the Legion bridge and the flow much swifter so I doubt that was a crossing point. The Federal Corps of Observation picketted the MD side of the Potomac along the canal from Georgetown to the Monacacy. During this time, late 1861 to early 1862, Union and CSA troops frequently exchanged coffee, tobacco, and newspapers but there was no specific crossing point that was commonly used.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - L Verge - 02-14-2016 07:39 PM
Thanks, Dennis. I didn't know you were native to Montgomery County, so watch out - I may ask for help sometimes. Your answers, however, do seem to confirm my thoughts that Eddie Fitzgerald dreamed up his adventures of assisting in river crossings.
Wasn't the Battle of Ball's Bluff where Lincoln's friend Col. Baker lost his life? Did Partisan Ranger Wat Bowie (from Prince George's County) stick to land raids in that area before being killed during a raid around Sandy Spring? I think Turner Ashby, CSA, did a lot of work in the area around Loudoun County.
Montgomery County was very active this past year in educating the public during the Sesquicentennial. They produced an excellent video, which I have only seen clips from.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - Dennis Urban - 02-14-2016 08:34 PM
Edward D. Baker and AL went way back to their days in Springfield as practicing attorneys together. He and AL were extremely close, so much so that Baker spent the Sunday afternoon before the battle with the Lincolns, then Baker rode to Poolesville and his demise 2 days later. Lincoln's second son was named for Ed Baker. Baker remains the only sitting U.S. Senator to ever die in combat. Baker received a promotion to general but did not accept the position as he would have had to resign his senate seat which he did not want to do. His body was returned to Washington City and he was laid out in the East Room of the White House. I am unfamiliar with Wat Bowie being in that area. I have not come across his name in all my research. Turner Ashby was in Loudoun County some in the early days of the war but not much. Some fellow by the name of Mosby was much more active in that area. Incidently, Conrad's Ferry became White's Ferry after the war when Elijah "Lige" White bought a large amount of property in vicinity including the ferry. I know, TMI. I no longer live in MD but that was the area in which I grew up and lived until 12 years ago.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - Jim Garrett - 02-15-2016 10:14 AM
Dennis knows his Montgomery County. Col. Baker made his HQ at a plantation named Annington. It still stands today near White's Ferry. The night before the battle of Ball's Bluff, Col Baker had dinner with his staff at Annington and declared, "Gentlemen, tomorrow we either dine in Leesburg or in Hell". RIP Col. Baker, is it hot down there? His body was taken back to Poolesville where it was laid out for a viewing for his troops in the front room of a local home. The home is still standing and used for a frame shop. If you visit Pollesville, it's across the street from the hardware store. I can't remember if his body was viewed in the White House or the Capitol. His body was held in the public vault at Congressional Cemetery until it was sent west. I believe he is buried at the Presidio, San Fransico.
BTW, I don't believe that Edward Fitzgerald ever had anything to do with Thomas Jones......just an interesting story.
RE: Who's good at tracking obscure details? - Dennis Urban - 02-15-2016 11:05 AM
Thanks for the compliment. Nice additional comments Jim and your additional factoids are accurate as well. Annington is a neat old brick ediface which many pass and few recognize. Most miss it bc of the hill on which it sits. I was actually inside the home 30 years ago. I lived in Poolesville in the early 1970s and was an elected commissioner for a while. I think I mentioned above that Baker's body was laid out in the East Room of the White House. He was not laid out in the Capitol. Baker is indeed buried in the Presidio cemetery high on a hill. I photographed the site several years ago. His body was moved several times before finally resting in SF. I have been a student of Balls Bluff for many years and I have a nice collection of BB related artifacts including rare Baker CDVs. That is a fascinating engagement with quite a few elementary mistakes; perhaps the greatest of which is coordination.