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Conspirators' bodies - MaddieM - 11-07-2015 05:02 PM
just read this snippet from
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1867-10-03/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1867&index=19&rows=20&words=Lewis+Payne&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1867&proxtext=lewis+payne&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
For the first time I've realised that this was perhaps why the bodies were not released at this time to the families. I always wondered about that. Were they waiting for the bodies to reduce completely to bones?
RE: Conspirators' bodies - BettyO - 11-07-2015 06:07 PM
I believe that the bodies were considered (at least by Stanton) as "property" of the US Government - i.e. authorities did not want the condemned "memorialized" by any one. According to Blaine Houmes, different soil types play a large role in the disintegration of bodies, along with corresponding temperatures. These bodies were not embalmed, of course so they would speedily deteriorate.
RE: Conspirators' bodies - maharba - 11-08-2015 08:15 AM
I don't like the concept of desecrating anyone's remains or their graves. Union soldiers preventing CSA widows from attending the graves of their husbands, etc. And contrast with Lincoln's case. He was carefully embalmed with something like a zinc chloride solution. But then, on that 2 week funeral train, a mortician traveled with it, and he had to re-embalm Lincoln several more times before it was over. And there is something unsettling to me, the thought of poor Lincoln now under tons of cement. At some level, it communicates to me that he may not be at ease and rest. First the room crammed full of Lincoln fans as he perished, then the overblown train odyssey and repumped with preservatives, then his body being moved so many times, only to end up under 10 tons of concrete. It was wrong at every turn.
RE: Conspirators' bodies - BettyO - 11-08-2015 09:04 AM
I agree! All remains should be treated with respect. I also think it was wrong of Gawler to take Powell's skull....
RE: Conspirators' bodies - Houmes - 11-08-2015 05:21 PM
(11-08-2015 08:15 AM)maharba Wrote: I don't like the concept of desecrating anyone's remains or their graves. Union soldiers preventing CSA widows from attending the graves of their husbands, etc. And contrast with Lincoln's case. He was carefully embalmed with something like a zinc chloride solution. But then, on that 2 week funeral train, a mortician traveled with it, and he had to re-embalm Lincoln several more times before it was over. And there is something unsettling to me, the thought of poor Lincoln now under tons of cement. At some level, it communicates to me that he may not be at ease and rest. First the room crammed full of Lincoln fans as he perished, then the overblown train odyssey and repumped with preservatives, then his body being moved so many times, only to end up under 10 tons of concrete. It was wrong at every turn.
I'm curious what your reference was that Lincoln's body was "reembalmed several times" during the return trip to Springfield. Most articles report the staff of Brown & Alexander provided only cosmetic services due to the skin darkening, along with dirt and dust acquired when moving the coffin and during the frequent viewings.
RE: Conspirators' bodies - L Verge - 11-08-2015 06:52 PM
(11-08-2015 05:21 PM)Houmes Wrote:(11-08-2015 08:15 AM)maharba Wrote: I don't like the concept of desecrating anyone's remains or their graves. Union soldiers preventing CSA widows from attending the graves of their husbands, etc. And contrast with Lincoln's case. He was carefully embalmed with something like a zinc chloride solution. But then, on that 2 week funeral train, a mortician traveled with it, and he had to re-embalm Lincoln several more times before it was over. And there is something unsettling to me, the thought of poor Lincoln now under tons of cement. At some level, it communicates to me that he may not be at ease and rest. First the room crammed full of Lincoln fans as he perished, then the overblown train odyssey and repumped with preservatives, then his body being moved so many times, only to end up under 10 tons of concrete. It was wrong at every turn.
I'm curious what your reference was that Lincoln's body was "reembalmed several times" during the return trip to Springfield. Most articles report the staff of Brown & Alexander provided only cosmetic services due to the skin darkening, along with dirt and dust acquired when moving the coffin and during the frequent viewings.
Blaine - there is one sentence on the Chicago Historical website that states that the embalmers accompanied the body and reembalmed it several times. http://www.chicagohistory.org/wetwithblood/return/remains5.htm This is the only time I remember ever seeing this - and I doubt it.
I have no intentions of learning the embalming process; but after a guided tour of a very old funeral home here in D.C. many years ago, it is my understanding that (at least in the 1860s) the process left the body as cold and hard as marble. How did one insert the proper equipment and get the fluids to move once the initial embalming was/is done?
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/2015/02/abraham_lincoln_s_decaying_corpse_was_sent_on_a_two_week_funeral_tour_across.html Good description from the relatively new book by Richard Fox about Lincoln's Body.
RE: Conspirators' bodies - maharba - 11-09-2015 04:07 AM
Looking over my notes I had made, from uncited source,
"Dr.Brown and undertaker Frank Sands accompanied the body on the long train journey re-embalming the body several times en route."
And I think Wiki has an entry solely on the topic of Lincoln's body, and it may mention more of this (re-embalming). If I was a mortician and they told me of the logistics and I intended more chemicals as needed, I would leave brass, long insertion tubes in place at the outset, especially as might irrigate the head and face. Probably, then using very warm chemical solutions to redo and touch up.
RE: Conspirators' bodies - RJNorton - 11-09-2015 05:08 AM
From what I have read Dr. Houmes is right.
I think there was constant attention to the cosmetic appearance of Abraham Lincoln's remains during the trip of the funeral train, but IMO no reembalming took place.
The firm of Brown and Alexander submitted this bill to the War Department:
'TO: embalming remains of
Abraham Lincoln, lately
President of The United
States - - - $100.00
TO: 16 days' services for
self and assistant, at $10
per day $160.00"
There is no mention of reembalming. IMO someone (perhaps a reporter who saw a change in the appearance of the president's remains) confused the constant cosmetic services that were rendered along the way with reembalming, and maybe this piece of incorrect news spread from there.
RE: Conspirators' bodies - L Verge - 11-09-2015 08:05 AM
(11-09-2015 04:07 AM)maharba Wrote: Looking over my notes I had made, from uncited source,
"Dr.Brown and undertaker Frank Sands accompanied the body on the long train journey re-embalming the body several times en route."
And I think Wiki has an entry solely on the topic of Lincoln's body, and it may mention more of this (re-embalming). If I was a mortician and they told me of the logistics and I intended more chemicals as needed, I would leave brass, long insertion tubes in place at the outset, especially as might irrigate the head and face. Probably, then using very warm chemical solutions to redo and touch up.
Your opening quote about Dr. Brown is the exact same sentence that is in the Chicago Historical Society site that I listed in my first response.
Since embalming was a relatively new procedure at that time, how sophisticated were the instruments and chemicals (and techniques) that you allude to here? And, how easy would the procedures be to perform on a moving train?
RE: Conspirators' bodies - RJNorton - 11-09-2015 08:42 AM
I found this information here.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Embalming immediately followed the
autopsy. To perform the actual operation,
Stanton called upon the firm of Brown &
Alexander, Embalming Surgeons. They sent
one of their employees, Henry P. Cattell.
Cattell first positioned the body, closed the
eyes, arched the eyebrows, and set the mouth
in a slight smile. He also shaved the face
except for a short tuft at the chin. After
closing the cranial incision, he began the
arterial embalming. Cattell used the femoral
artery (in the thigh) to inject the embalming
fluid. The main preservative chemical in the
solution was zinc chloride, extracted by
dissolving sheets of zinc in hydrochloric
acid. The embalming solution and method
were both of a French nature, adopted by
Brown & Alexander before the war. Lincoln
did not receive any cavity treatment, as it
was not a common practice at the time.
Soon, Lincoln's body hardened to a marble-
like state, ready for the amazing journey in
store for it.
Persistent problems with skin discoloration
around the eyes resulted from the grim
nature of the murder. Due to a phenomena
called transmitted force, the bullet's impact
as it entered the back of the head cracked
both of the skull's orbital plates in the front
bruising the skin. With constant, but simple,
cosmetic attention, the staff of Brown &
Alexander, who traveled with the body, were
able to keep Lincoln in a presentable
viewing condition with the help of local
embalmers and undertakers along the way.
Though often noting these discolorations,
newspaper accounts generally reported
favorably on the president's appearance.
During the journey from Washington, D.C.,
to his final resting place in Springfield,
Illinois, an estimated one million citizens
viewed Lincoln's body as it lay in repose in
twelve cities along the funeral train's route.
Lincoln's dramatic and spectacular funeral
journey introduced embalming to a broad
audience and popularized the procedure.
With so many people viewing first-hand the
benefits of embalming for both funerary and
sanitary purposes, it began to earn a newly
found acceptance. Within the next few
decades, undertakers and families would
adopt embalming on an increasing scale,
until it finally became an established social,
and in some cases religious, custom for
Americans, especially of the Christian faith.
RE: Conspirators' bodies - Houmes - 11-09-2015 08:51 AM
[/quote]
I have no intentions of learning the embalming process; but after a guided tour of a very old funeral home here in D.C. many years ago, it is my understanding that (at least in the 1860s) the process left the body as cold and hard as marble. How did one insert the proper equipment and get the fluids to move once the initial embalming was/is done?
[/quote]
Once a mummy, always a mummy. Civil War embalming wasn't a perfect science. A lot of experimenting took place with a variety of chemicals, including alcohol, mercury, zinc, creosote, and arsenic. Formaldehyde didn't become widely popular until the 1890's, although today it's used with other chemicals, if for no other reason than it's carcinogenic and if used alone it turns a body gray. The average cadaver today requires about 3.5 gallons of chemicals. Arsenic was the favorite used during the war. What Civil War embalmers didn't know was that unless dyes and "softening agents" were used along with the other chosen chemicals the cadaver could darken over time and turn hard. Example: the Enid mummy. He was embalmed four times, but during the last treatment it was miscalculated and look what happened. Lincoln was imperfectly embalmed and turned black while he was in New York City. Mummification by most chemicals dehydrates the body and shrinks or destroys the blood vessels, so later attempts at arterial embalming are usually impossible.
Incidentally, in his book Richard Fox describes the condition of Lincoln's body during the multiple exhumations and reburials in Springfield. At the final burial in 1901, spectators were aghast at the color of his face, along with the terrible odor of decay. His face was chalky white as opposed to the last viewing in 1887 when it was black. Answer: mold.
RE: Conspirators' bodies - Gene C - 11-09-2015 12:20 PM
(11-09-2015 08:05 AM)L Verge Wrote: Since embalming was a relatively new procedure at that time, how sophisticated were the instruments and chemicals (and techniques) that you allude to here? And, how easy would the procedures be to perform on a moving train?
Why would one want to embalm a moving train?
RE: Conspirators' bodies - L Verge - 11-09-2015 12:49 PM
(11-09-2015 12:20 PM)Gene C Wrote:(11-09-2015 08:05 AM)L Verge Wrote: Since embalming was a relatively new procedure at that time, how sophisticated were the instruments and chemicals (and techniques) that you allude to here? And, how easy would the procedures be to perform on a moving train?
Why would one want to embalm a moving train?
(11-09-2015 12:20 PM)Gene C Wrote:(11-09-2015 08:05 AM)L Verge Wrote: Since embalming was a relatively new procedure at that time, how sophisticated were the instruments and chemicals (and techniques) that you allude to here? And, how easy would the procedures be to perform on a moving train?
Why would one want to embalm a moving train?
Score one for Gene!
RE: Conspirators' bodies - Dennis Urban - 11-10-2015 10:22 AM
I also doubt that Lincoln's body was "re-embalmed" during the trip to Springfield. In order to do so, his veins would have to be open and pliable which I doubt was the case after the first embalming. Also consider what would have happened to the original embalming fluid in the closed vessel of the human body. No doubt the original embalmer, knowing with whom he was dealing, forced as much fluid into the body as could be accepted. Could the fluid leak out, be further absorbed, evaporate? I accept the cosmetic touch up as I have read in several sources ILO introducing more fluids into the already hardening body.
RE: Conspirators' bodies - Eva Elisabeth - 11-10-2015 01:52 PM
I, too, cannot imagine how re-embalming would be possible, nor why necessary. I think someone misunderstood the superficial cosmetic facial treatment.