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+--- Thread: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication (/thread-2408.html)
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - Gene C - 04-23-2015 10:26 AM
(04-23-2015 09:32 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [quote='Eva Elisabeth' pid='46937' dateline='1429749513']
Fido probably believed in the basic goodness of man.
Yes, he did. He had that in common with his owner.
I agree. Some people believe a dog gets its personality from it's owner, but according to the great dog psychologist Sigmond Schnauzer, it is frequently the other way around. "Behind every great man, there is a great dog."
- Fido
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - RJNorton - 04-23-2015 04:03 PM
(04-23-2015 09:32 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: There is a book by Jason Emerson("The Madness of Mary Lincoln") with contributions by psychiatrist Dr. James Brust that argues very conclusively that MTL suffered from PTSD, probably as early as the death of Willie and most certainly after the assassination.
Hi Toia. Dr. Brust also wrote one of the chapters in The Mary Lincoln Enigma. No matter how one feels about Mary, IMO it is an interesting read.
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - Juan Marrero - 04-23-2015 04:16 PM
Thank you. I have the book, but it is some time ago that I read it. I will go back to it.
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - L Verge - 04-23-2015 04:19 PM
And speaking of Mrs. Lincoln's personality. a gentleman wrote to me today and mentioned again something that I had asked about previously on this forum. Is it true that Mrs. Lincoln slapped her husband on the way back upriver on the River Queen?
My correspondent quoted from Michael Burlingame: "On April 9 [1865]...Thomas Stackpole, a White House steward, reported that on the trip back to Washington, the first lady struck her husband in the face, damned him and cursed him. At a dinner party aboard ship, Mary Lincoln's seamstress, Elizabeth Keckly, observed a young captain, 'by way of pleasantry; say: 'Mrs. Lincoln, you should have seen the president the other day, on his triumphal entry into Richmond. He was the cynosure of all eyes. The ladies kissed their hands to him, and greeted him with the waving of handkerchiefs. He is quite a hero when surrounded by pretty young ladies.'"
Burlingame goes on to say that "Mrs. Lincoln turned to him with flashing eyes, with the remark that his familiarity was offensive to her. Quite a scene followed."
Has anyone seen such a report on the slapping - other than from Burlingame? Where did Stackpole supposedly report this?
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - RJNorton - 04-23-2015 05:10 PM
(04-23-2015 04:19 PM)L Verge Wrote: Where did Stackpole supposedly report this?
Apparently he told Ward Hill Lamon. The incident is described on p. 467 of Herndon's Informants. Herndon was taking notes on an interview he was conducting with Lamon, and Lamon reported that Stackpole had told him, "Mrs. Lincoln struck Mr. Lincoln in the face on a boat going to or at Richmond - struck him hard - damned him - cursed him." Unless there is another source all we have is Herndon's handwritten notes from this interview with Lamon. The interview is undated, but the book says 1865 or 1866.
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - L Verge - 04-23-2015 06:54 PM
Thanks, Roger. Every now and then, I wish I had read more books on Lincoln's general history. I now have you guys to turn to, however, and can save my efforts!
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - Eva Elisabeth - 04-23-2015 07:09 PM
(04-23-2015 10:26 AM)Gene C Wrote:Like master like man!(04-23-2015 09:32 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [quote='Eva Elisabeth' pid='46937' dateline='1429749513']
Fido probably believed in the basic goodness of man.
Yes, he did. He had that in common with his owner.
I agree. Some people believe a dog gets its personality from it's owner, but according to the great dog psychologist Sigmond Schnauzer, it is frequently the other way around. "Behind every great man, there is a great dog."
- Fido
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - LincolnToddFan - 04-24-2015 10:20 AM
It does not surprise me a bit that Prof. Burlingame uses this story. Wasn't Stackpole a WH crook who had lost his job? My memory is foggy. The story might be true. MTL's behavior during City Point and it's aftermath are well-documented enough. It was MTL at her absolute nadir, no doubt.
But only three days later-April 12-is when Lincoln wrote his wife the "playful, affectionate" note inviting her on their last happy carriage ride together.(Levitt-Turner, Letters, pg#257)
I have always suspected-without any real proof-that AL knew very well about the toll the WH the war years had taken on their marriage. He had decided to work on trying to "fix" things with her, and had the repair of his marriage on his To Do list along with post-war Reconstruction.
He ran out of time for both.
In a letter of MTL's written to her friend Charles Sumner after the tragedy, she acknowledged the number of times she had "trespassed" on her late husband's kindness and good nature. Her major regret that he did not regain consciousness before he died was that so she could have expressed her appreciation to him, and begged his forgiveness for any pain she had caused him.(Letters, pg#355-356)
So, MTL did indeed acknowledge her faults and the part she had played in adding to her husband's burdens. She suffered for it. Undoubtedly not as much as Burlingame feels she should have, but suffer she did...maybe for the rest of her life.
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - Gene C - 04-24-2015 11:56 AM
Well said.
What do we know about Stackpole?
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - LincolnToddFan - 04-24-2015 12:16 PM
Gene, I know that he was as crooked as it gets and was involved in a WH scandal and lost his job. Mary was involved somehow as well, and it ended up with great bitterness on both sides.
Let me dig out one of my zillion or so Lincoln books and get details, then I will post about it.
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - L Verge - 04-24-2015 12:57 PM
I think Stackpole was one of those, along with the gardener Watt, that was suspected of being in on Mrs. Lincoln's schemes to get money intended for White House care diverted into her hands once the bills starting coming in for her purchases.
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - RJNorton - 04-24-2015 04:46 PM
Offhand I don't even recall seeing Stackpole's name listed in the group that was on the River Queen. Has anyone seen this?
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - LincolnToddFan - 04-24-2015 05:04 PM
No, Roger. I am rifling through the Baker MTL bio, Epstein's "Portrait of a Marriage" and the Levitt-Turner anthology of letters too. Stackpole was not on the River Queen and in fact had been dismissed from the WH long before City Point and the slapping incident was even supposed to have taken place.
Anyway, my understanding is that MTL returned to Washington a few days after her City Point meltdown, ahead of her husband, who went on to tour Richmond with Tad. The pretext that was used was that Lincoln had a dream that the WH had caught fire and Mary was to go ahead of him and check things out. There are letters and telegrams where she pleads with him from the WH to wait for her, in the Anthology.
So when was this fit of violence against the president by MTL alleged to have taken place? Truly confused now.
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - Eva Elisabeth - 04-24-2015 05:20 PM
Here's some info on Stackpole:
http://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/inside.asp?ID=66&subjectID=2
RE: At the end, did MTL have a sense of vindication - LincolnToddFan - 04-24-2015 05:27 PM
YIKES, what a mess. Thanks Eva!
So if Stackpole wasn't on the RQ how did he find out what happened? Did he find out from WH gossip?