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+--- Thread: Borne by Loving Hands (/thread-2400.html)
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Borne by Loving Hands - L Verge - 04-17-2015 12:37 PM
I know that we have discussed this before, but I am too lazy to search for previous postings. A Surratt member sent a copy of the Sunday edition of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette in today's mail, which has a front-page story on a Pennsylvania man who supposedly held the dying president as he was transported to Petersen's.
The man's name was Jacob J. Soles of North Versailles, Pennsylvania. He went to the theater that night with three McKeesport [PA] men, William Sample, Jake Griffiths, and John Corey -- all of whom were assisting in the transport at the request of Dr. Leale. Soles was assigned to the feet, along with another soldier, and two others to the head. As they reached the stairway, two other soldiers joined them.
How does this compare to what we have already posted about the "loving hands?"
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - RJNorton - 04-17-2015 12:50 PM
Laurie, I often see those names mentioned in books. Despite the claims, Ed Steers writes in his encyclopedia, "...there are no records that definitively confirm who carried Lincoln's body from the theater into the Petersen House."
In the many years following the assassination 20+ men claimed (or were given credit) to have helped carry the stricken President across the street from Ford's Theatre to the Petersen House. The names include Dr. Charles Leale, Dr. Charles Taft, Dr. Albert King, Albert Daggett, Augustus Clark, Capt. Obadiah Jackson Downing, Capt. Edwin Bedee, Major Isaac Walker McClay, W.H. Flood, Frederick Johnstone, Jacob J. Soles, John Corey, Jacob Griffiths, William Sample, William McPeck, John Weaver, Joseph Hazelton, Capt. Owen, Capt. John Sears, Capt. John Busby, Capt. Oliver C. Gatch, George A. Clark, Thomas Gourlay, John Veach, Major White, William Greer, William A. Stone, and William Hall.
The names I've seen most often in books are Jacob Soles, John Corey, Jacob Griffiths, and William Sample.
Tim Good, in his book, agrees with Ed Steers saying the actual bearers cannot be determined with absolute certainty.
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - L Verge - 04-17-2015 01:05 PM
(04-17-2015 12:50 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Laurie, I often see those names mentioned in books. Despite the claims, Ed Steers writes in his encyclopedia, "...there are no records that definitively confirm who carried Lincoln's body from the theater into the Petersen House."
In the many years following the assassination 20+ men claimed (or were given credit) to have helped carry the stricken President across the street from Ford's Theatre to the Petersen House. The names include Dr. Charles Leale, Dr. Charles Taft, Dr. Albert King, Albert Daggett, Augustus Clark, Capt. Obadiah Jackson Downing, Capt. Edwin Bedee, Major Isaac Walker McClay, W.H. Flood, Frederick Johnstone, Jacob J. Soles, John Corey, Jacob Griffiths, William Sample, William McPeck, John Weaver, Joseph Hazelton, Capt. Owen, Capt. John Sears, Capt. John Busby, Capt. Oliver C. Gatch, George A. Clark, Thomas Gourlay, John Veach, Major White, William Greer, William A. Stone, and William Hall.
The names I've seen most often in books are Jacob Soles, John Corey, Jacob Griffiths, and William Sample.
Tim Good, in his book, agrees with Ed Steers saying the actual bearers cannot be determined with absolute certainty.
Thanks. I should have mentioned that Carl Sandburg interviewed Mr. Soles.
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - RJNorton - 04-17-2015 01:12 PM
In his 1909 address Dr. Leale stated:
We decided that the President could now be moved from the possibility of danger in the theatre to a house where we might place him on a bed in safety. To assist in this duty I assigned Dr. Taft to carry his right shoulder, Dr. King to carry his left shoulder and detailed a sufficient number of others, whose names I have never discovered, to assist in carrying the body, while I carried his head, going first. We reached the door of the box and saw the long passage leading to the exit crowded with people. I called out twice: "Guards, clear the passage! Guards, clear the passage!" A free space was quickly cleared by an officer and protected by a line of soldiers in the position of present arms with swords, pistols and bayonets. When we reached the stairs, I turned so that those holding the President's feet would descend first. At the door of the theatre, I was again asked if the President could be taken to the White House. I answered: "No, the President would die on the way."
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - Bob Cecil - 06-22-2015 12:58 PM
Back in 2005 I asked the Director at Ford’s Theatre for a list of Lincoln assassination eyewitnesses who claimed to have helped carry Lincoln’s body from the theatre to Petersen House across the street. I added my great grandfather’s name, Obadiah Jackson Downing, and one other name to their list. That added up to about 20 people who made the claim.
I have sent a pdf document, “Who Carried Lincoln’s Body & attachments.pdf” to Roger Norton for inclusion on his website. This eight-page document includes a five-page article that attempts to substantiate O. J. Downing’s claim, a two-page spreadsheet that lists claimants’ names, dates, etc. (which I constructed based on the information I obtained from Ford’s Theatre), and a one-page spreadsheet diagram showing how a limited number of people might have been positioned around Lincoln’s body as they were carrying it.
I must state that these materials do not prove who, besides three doctors, actually helped to carry Lincoln. No one will ever know for sure. But I would like to think that, although I’m not even an amateur historian, I have contributed something to the discussion. At least I have taken an opportunity to make the case for my ancestor. Others certainly have every right to do the same for their ancestors.
Click below:
Who Carried Lincoln's Body & attachments
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - RJNorton - 06-22-2015 02:07 PM
Kudos on all the research you have done, Bob! Often we have discussed various historical events on the forum and found there are many conflicts in accounts. In trying to decipher the truth we often have decided that the earlier accounts, when memories are fresh(er), are more likely to be the right ones. In this situation, Obadiah Jackson Downing's account is one of the earliest. This fact, along with the rest of the research you have done, leads me to agree that you have made the case that Downing indeed was probably one of the men who helped carry the stricken president to the Petersen House. Well done, sir!
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - L Verge - 06-22-2015 06:11 PM
I have also had conversations with Bob over the past few years, and I agree with Roger. Bob has done excellent research and made a very strong case of Mr. Downing. Glad to see you contributing here on the forum, Bob.
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - Houmes - 06-23-2015 12:37 PM
(04-17-2015 01:05 PM)L Verge Wrote:(04-17-2015 12:50 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Laurie, I often see those names mentioned in books. Despite the claims, Ed Steers writes in his encyclopedia, "...there are no records that definitively confirm who carried Lincoln's body from the theater into the Petersen House."
In the many years following the assassination 20+ men claimed (or were given credit) to have helped carry the stricken President across the street from Ford's Theatre to the Petersen House. The names include Dr. Charles Leale, Dr. Charles Taft, Dr. Albert King, Albert Daggett, Augustus Clark, Capt. Obadiah Jackson Downing, Capt. Edwin Bedee, Major Isaac Walker McClay, W.H. Flood, Frederick Johnstone, Jacob J. Soles, John Corey, Jacob Griffiths, William Sample, William McPeck, John Weaver, Joseph Hazelton, Capt. Owen, Capt. John Sears, Capt. John Busby, Capt. Oliver C. Gatch, George A. Clark, Thomas Gourlay, John Veach, Major White, William Greer, William A. Stone, and William Hall.
The names I've seen most often in books are Jacob Soles, John Corey, Jacob Griffiths, and William Sample.
Tim Good, in his book, agrees with Ed Steers saying the actual bearers cannot be determined with absolute certainty.
Thanks. I should have mentioned that Carl Sandburg interviewed Mr. Soles.
Iowa Governor William Milo Stone claimed he was present at Ford's Theater. He rushed to the president's box and remained at his bedside until Lincoln died. He served as a pallbearer at the funeral and rode on the train that carried Lincoln's body back to Illinois. He also claimed to have helped carry Lincoln's body across the street.
I suspect some of this is true, probably the part of being at Ford's Theatre.
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - Rsmyth - 06-23-2015 01:37 PM
At least 25 people claimed to have had a hand in assisting with the removal from the theater to the Petersen house including Thomas Gourlay, although he did not make the claim, his family did. One claimant said that the President was transported sitting upright in the chair in which he had been shot.
All the "claims" came much later after the event, even Dr. Leale's who around that time said he also performed CPR on Lincoln.
Based on the evidence or lack there of, I would grant Mr. Downing's claim equal weight.
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - Bob Cecil - 06-25-2015 02:09 PM
Rich,
Your response is the first time I've heard the name of Thomas Gourlay. Since it sounds as though you know something about him, could you please elaborate, perhaps providing some substantiation of his claim? If so, I'll add his name to the spreadsheet I developed re the people who claimed to have helped carry Lincoln's body.
Who was he?
Did he mention carrying Lincoln in a dated letter to a family member?
Is there a newspaper or magazine article that mentions his claim? If so, in what publication and on what date?
What else is there that gives credence to his claim (made for him by family members)?
There were nineteen people listed on my spreadsheet. If Gourlay might also have a claim, he would make twenty. In your response above, however, you said that "no less than twenty-five" people made similar claims. If you have the information, who were the other five and what can you tell us about them that would help substantiate their claims?
Best, Bob (Robert Downing) Cecil
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - Rsmyth - 06-25-2015 03:09 PM
Hi Bob,
The figure of 25 is mentioned in the Kunhardt's "Twenty Days."
Thomas Gourlay was an actor who has a small part in the play that evening. He never said a word about the events of the night. His daughter Jeannie, who also had a part in the play said in an April 11th 1914 interview which she gave to Hamilton Busby (Los Angeles Times) that her father assisted in moving Lincoln from the theater to the Petersen house. Email me if you would like any additional information on Thomas Gourlay.
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - Steve - 02-28-2018 02:24 AM
Augustus Clark wrote this letter on 16 April 1865 to his uncle describing how he saw the commotion outside of Ford's Theatre from Peterson House, ran down to see what was the matter and after hearing that Lincoln had been shot ran into the theater and got to the President's box in time to be one of the people to carry the President's body to Peterson House:
http://rememberinglincoln.fords.org/node/287
On 5 May, he sent a similar letter to Gov. Andrew of Massachusetts:
http://rememberinglincoln.fords.org/node/288
How believable do you find Clark's account? His description of the scene at the theater seems to ring true, but could he really have reached the box, through the crowd, in time to be one of the ones to carry Lincoln to Peterson House if the President was moved in under 20 minutes? And why mail part of his bloody towel souvenir to the governor of Massachusetts?
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - RJNorton - 02-28-2018 05:05 AM
I, for one, do not believe it. Am I reading that correctly - with one hand/arm Clara Harris lifted him from the stage to the box? Wow!
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - JMadonna - 02-28-2018 09:22 AM
I think in all these stories the teller feels he has to say something unique to give the listener the idea that he is getting a first person account.
RE: Borne by Loving Hands - Dennis Urban - 03-01-2018 10:44 PM
This is a very curious and extraordinary account. His letter contains many specific details which seems to indicate he was in the Petersen house from the time Lincoln was brought over until after Lincoln's body was removed. If in fact he was in the Petersen house the entire time, he must have been a boarder there otherwise how could a stranger to the house remain on the scene the entire time. That would simply not make sense. I wonder if there is an accounting anywhere as to the names of the residents/boarders of the Petersen house in early to mid-April 1865? Some names are known and certainly the two Ulke brothers were residents. They took the two known images of the death bed shortly after Lincoln was removed from the house. Was he present at the autopsy? He does not specifically say he was but he mentions the round ball which killed Lincoln. I'd like to see more proof before I believe this account completely.