+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency (/forum-2.html)
+--- Thread: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann (/thread-1414.html)
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - Eva Elisabeth - 04-13-2015 10:11 PM
Thanks for sharing your opinion and recommendation, John! I haven't read this book yet, but will keep it in mind (once I've read down my newly acquired stack)!
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - RJNorton - 04-14-2015 05:43 AM
Eva, I was on the fence regarding the Ann Rutledge affair, but the late Mr. Walsh changed my mind with his book. When I was in grade school I was taught to believe the romance was very real. As I grew older, I became aware some folks had doubts, and I did re-think where I stood. But then Mr. Walsh's book came out. I was sad to read in another thread that the author passed away on March 19, 2015.
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - Anita - 04-14-2015 04:59 PM
Thanks for your input John. I look forward to reading what Walsh has to say after re-examination of source documents. Time and a new perspective may shed light on this emotionally charged subject.
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - LincolnToddFan - 04-14-2015 05:38 PM
Like Roger, I was raised to accept the Lincoln/Rutledge affair as fact and I did, and I do. For me the evidence of a significant relationship between the two is pretty convincing.
Where the myth enthusiasts completely lose me is their insistence that Lincoln never loved again and spent the rest of his life mourning and pining for Ann Rutledge...not to mention the truly fantastic speculation that she was the inspiration behind the Gettysburg Address and The Second Inaugural.
There is no evidence whatsoever for any of that, and that is what I reject.
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - Eva Elisabeth - 04-14-2015 07:31 PM
(04-14-2015 05:38 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: For me the evidence of a significant relationship between the two is pretty convincing.That's what I believe respectively don't believe, too. Most people have a first "big" love they don't marry, and thoroughly suffer when this first relationship ends for whatever reason, but nevertheless love their later spouse more and dearly.
Where the myth enthusiasts completely lose me is their insistence that Lincoln never loved again and spent the rest of his life mourning and pining for Ann Rutledge...
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - davg2000 - 10-29-2015 10:28 AM
I grew up in central Illinois believing that Lincoln loved Ann Rutledge and that her death nearly destroyed him. Over the years I taught quite a few relatives of Ann Rutledge, and all of them believed that Lincoln loved Ann, although one did say that opinion in the Rutledge family was mixed. With regard to Ann's significance in the Lincoln story, for several years I taught Edgar Lee Masters's 1916 poem from "Spoon River Anthology," in which Masters has Ann[e], speaking from beyond the grave, say: "Bloom forever, O Republic,/From the dust of my bosom!" (The usual explanation of those words is that Ann is acknowledging that after her death the distraught Lincoln threw himself into a political career, which culminated in his saving the Union, and causing the Republic to "bloom forever.") Perhaps Herndon's and Weik's biography fed the poem, which has fed the myth. I'd guess that if you ask most in central Illinois to explain Ann's importance to Lincoln, you'd hear that Lincoln deeply loved her, somehow overcame her loss, and then went on. I don't think it is commonly believed around here that Lincoln never truly loved Mary, whatever Herndon said, and whatever the "myth" suggests.
I once asked Tom Schwartz what he thought. He said that he didn't believe that Lincoln had the time to pursue a deep relationship with Ann. Dr. Schwarz said that in 1834 and 35 Lincoln was too busy in the Illinois State Legislature, which met in Vandalia, a long way from New Salem.
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - RJNorton - 10-30-2015 05:45 AM
(10-29-2015 10:28 AM)davg2000 Wrote: I grew up in central Illinois believing that Lincoln loved Ann Rutledge
I grew up in northern Illinois believing the exact same thing.
(10-29-2015 10:28 AM)davg2000 Wrote: I once asked Tom Schwartz what he thought. He said that he didn't believe that Lincoln had the time to pursue a deep relationship with Ann. Dr. Schwartz said that in 1834 and 35 Lincoln was too busy in the Illinois State Legislature, which met in Vandalia, a long way from New Salem.
Hi Dave. I hate to disagree with Tom Schwartz (he's an ex-student of mine), but my recollection (hopefully right) is that the meetings of the Illinois state legislature in Vandalia only lasted for about 3 months of the year. That leaves 9 months to pursue his relationship with Ann.
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - davg2000 - 10-30-2015 08:09 AM
(10-30-2015 05:45 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(10-29-2015 10:28 AM)davg2000 Wrote: I grew up in central Illinois believing that Lincoln loved Ann Rutledge
I grew up in northern Illinois believing the exact same thing.
(10-29-2015 10:28 AM)davg2000 Wrote: I once asked Tom Schwartz what he thought. He said that he didn't believe that Lincoln had the time to pursue a deep relationship with Ann. Dr. Schwartz said that in 1834 and 35 Lincoln was too busy in the Illinois State Legislature, which met in Vandalia, a long way from New Salem.
Hi Dave. I hate to disagree with Tom Schwartz (he's an ex-student of mine), but my recollection (hopefully right) is that the meetings of the Illinois state legislature in Vandalia only lasted for about 3 months of the year. That leaves 9 months to pursue his relationship with Ann.
Hi, Roger--
At the time Tom told me this, I knew little about Herndon's views and even less about the views of historians such as Randall, who disbelieved that Lincoln loved Ann. At ALPM, which Tom is responsible for as much as anyone, the traditional view--and not the "myth"-- is tacitly accepted. In the "Lincoln's Eyes" film, although the narrator mentions that "scholars disagree" about the truth of the love affair, the film does clearly suggest that Lincoln truly loved Ann. That phrase can mean that most/many historians disagree with the traditional view or that historians disagree with one another about the love affair. The film also clearly states that Lincoln and Mary had a good marriage.
No way we'll ever know, but the traditional view is now back in.
(10-30-2015 08:09 AM)davg2000 Wrote:(10-30-2015 05:45 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(10-29-2015 10:28 AM)davg2000 Wrote: I grew up in central Illinois believing that Lincoln loved Ann Rutledge
I grew up in northern Illinois believing the exact same thing.
(10-29-2015 10:28 AM)davg2000 Wrote: I once asked Tom Schwartz what he thought. He said that he didn't believe that Lincoln had the time to pursue a deep relationship with Ann. Dr. Schwartz said that in 1834 and 35 Lincoln was too busy in the Illinois State Legislature, which met in Vandalia, a long way from New Salem.
Hi Dave. I hate to disagree with Tom Schwartz (he's an ex-student of mine), but my recollection (hopefully right) is that the meetings of the Illinois state legislature in Vandalia only lasted for about 3 months of the year. That leaves 9 months to pursue his relationship with Ann.
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - maharba - 10-31-2015 08:29 PM
I'm not sure of the timing. Lincoln had several friends and relatives pass on and that added to his chronic depression. Now maybe this is 1836. He either does or does not pursue a courting with Rutledge, maybe this is 1837. Then he mails the Suicide Poem to the Sangamon newspaper in 1838. Folks are solicitous for him and leery that he himself does not commit suicide? If that is the timing, then is the break with Rutledge the focal point of that period of his depression spell? Or maybe I have the timing and other events confused with the timing of the 1838 Suicide Poem.
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - RJNorton - 11-01-2015 06:44 AM
IMO there is no connection between the suicide poem allegedly written by Lincoln and the death of Ann Rutledge. The August 25, 1838, edition of the Sangamo Journal carried the suicide poem. Ann died three years earlier in 1835. It's also possible Lincoln was not the author of the suicide poem. Lincoln's melancholy over Ann's death did not last 3 years IMO.
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - maharba - 11-01-2015 06:59 PM
Thanks for the correction and on the timing. I have made and continue to make an analysis of the poem, and believe I have discovered a 'new' item or two about it. Likely I'll bring that forward, at a later date. Another interesting consideration is all the early deaths of Abraham Lincoln friends and relatives, which would surely work a hardship on any man to have to contemplate. Re-consider the near death experience of Robert Lincoln, pulled from out of the moving rail cars by Edwin Booth. So much coincidence and serendipity. Booth didn't realize till later who he had saved. But consider if Robert Lincoln had been dragged under and killed by the moving railroad cars. That might have sent Mary and Abraham Lincoln over the edge with grief. And immensely added to the grief overload for Lincoln, and changed history.
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - RJNorton - 11-02-2015 06:25 AM
(11-01-2015 06:59 PM)maharba Wrote: I have made and continue to make an analysis of the poem, and believe I have discovered a 'new' item or two about it.
Wonderful, maharba! Here are the words so everyone can see what Lincoln allegedly wrote. The poem was published anonymously in the the August 25, 1838, issue of the Sangamo Journal. I do not know the percentage of historians who feel Lincoln wrote it, but certainly some feel there are definite signs that point to Lincoln as the author.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Suicide's Soliloquy
Here, where the lonely hooting owl
Sends forth his midnight moans,
Fierce wolves shall o'er my carcase growl,
Or buzzards pick my bones.
No fellow-man shall learn my fate,
Or where my ashes lie;
Unless by beasts drawn round their bait,
Or by the ravens' cry.
Yes! I've resolved the deed to do,
And this the place to do it:
This heart I'll rush a dagger through,
Though I in hell should rue it!
Hell! What is hell to one like me
Who pleasures never know;
By friends consigned to misery,
By hope deserted too?
To ease me of this power to think,
That through my bosom raves,
I'll headlong leap from hell's high brink,
And wallow in its waves.
Though devils yell, and burning chains
May waken long regret;
Their frightful screams, and piercing pains,
Will help me to forget.
Yes! I'm prepared, through endless night,
To take that fiery berth!
Think not with tales of hell to fright
Me, who am damn'd on earth!
Sweet steel! come forth from out of your sheath,
And glist'ning, speak your powers;
Rip up the organs of my breath,
And draw my blood in showers!
I strike! It quivers in that heart
Which drives me to this end;
I draw and kiss the bloody dart,
My last-my only friend!
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - STS Lincolnite - 11-02-2015 10:09 PM
(11-02-2015 06:25 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Wonderful, maharba! Here are the words so everyone can see what Lincoln allegedly wrote. The poem was published anonymously in the the August 25, 1838, issue of the Sangamo Journal. I do not know the percentage of historians who feel Lincoln wrote it, but certainly some feel there are definite signs that point to Lincoln as the author.
Roger, what specifically are the "signs" some people believe are indicative of Lincoln being the author?
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - Eva Elisabeth - 11-02-2015 10:11 PM
I would like to learn forum members' opinion as for Lincoln being the author or not. The frequent mentioning of hell somehow seems striking to me.
RE: Grave of James Rutledge, father of Ann - RJNorton - 11-03-2015 06:08 AM
(11-02-2015 10:09 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: Roger, what specifically are the "signs" some people believe are indicative of Lincoln being the author?
Joshua Speed told William Herndon in an interview on June 10, 1865, about the alleged suicide poem. Speed was unsure of the date, but put it in the 1840-1841 time frame. Lincoln apparently sent the Sangamo Journal a few lines entitled "Suicide" which were published in the paper. Herndon did a search of the Sangamo Journal but never found the poem. Herndon was suspicious that Lincoln may have cut it out of the file copy (or asked someone to do it for him).
For well over 100 years the poem went undiscovered. Then, about 15 years ago, scholar Richard Lawrence Miller noticed an unsigned poem titled "The Suicide’s Soliloquy" in the August 25, 1838, edition of the Sangamo Journal. The paper explained that the note was found by the unidentified bones of an apparent suicide located near the Sangamon River.
Three arguments given by Joshua Shenk (in his book titled Lincoln's Melancholy. How Depression Challenged a President and Fueled His Greatness) that Lincoln probably wrote this poem are: (1) it has the same meter as Lincoln’s other published verse; (2) it is close to the date given by Speed when he told Herndon about it; (3) its syntax, tone, reasoning, and references are characteristic of Lincoln.
Regarding the poem Richard Lawrence Miller said:
"I believe the poem was simply a literary exercise by Lincoln. At that time he was a member of a writers group in Springfield, and members shared their productions with one another. Revealing intimate thought to the public, even anonymously, would have been contrary to his personality, even if his mood were bleak at the time the poem was written. But sharing a work in which he felt pride would have been comfortable for him, even though he didn't take public credit for his poetry.
Regarding that, perhaps he felt that writing poetry would have been inconsistent with a public reputation as a tough politician. Indeed, political consequences of publishing a poem that expressed suicidal thoughts are another reason to believe the poem wasn't autobiographical, even if his own experiences with depression helped provide the poem's emotional power.
Note, too, that at the poem's conclusion the narrator reports that he has committed suicide, another reason that the item shouldn't be taken literally as Lincoln speaking about himself. Dead men tell no tales."