+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy (/thread-1299.html)
Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - Rhatkinson - 11-16-2013 10:48 AM
I just finished James Swanson's "End of Days" and could not recommend it more highly. As with his Lincoln assassination books "Manhunt" and "Bloody Crimes", he writes very eloquently and informative on the JFK assassination and some of the parallels between the death of Lincoln and Kennedy.
One topic he focuses on is the response of how each widow dealt with their husband's death and funeral. Jackie was very cognizant of the poor reputation that Mary Lincoln earned following Lincoln's death 98 years previously. The contrast between the two First Ladies was night and day. As most here know, Jackie planned JFK's funeral to pattern Lincoln's down to the smallest detail. Unlike Mary, she insisted on not just planning, but participating and being gracious to the mourners who came to honor her husband. After the burial at Arlington Jackie insisted on returning to the White House to great everyone despite her own grief. She felt it was her duty. Contrast that with Mary, who stayed secluded in her room for a month after Lincoln's death and did not even attend his funeral. Jackie left the White House just 10 days after the assassination.
Jackie also put her children's needs over her own, unlike Mary who was too overcome with grief to care for Tad. The day of JFK's funeral happened to be John, Jr.'s 3rd birthday, and Jackie insisted on having the pre-scheduled party for him that afternoon. Just imagine....
There is a letter that Jackie wrote one year after JFK's death that, while Mary never wrote the same words, it am sure she agreed with. It is a beautiful ending paragraph that says:
"...I should have guessed that it would be too much to ask to grow old with him and see our children grow up together. So now, he is a legend when he would have preferred to be a man."
Heath
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - LincolnMan - 11-16-2013 11:12 AM
Wow. Great stuff. That last quote was heartbreaking.
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - Dave Taylor - 11-16-2013 12:26 PM
Jackie's last line in the "Killing Kennedy" docudrama on Nat Geo was the same quote you put, Heath. Lindsey and I just watched Killing Kennedy yesterday and thought it was well done.
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - Rhatkinson - 11-16-2013 01:55 PM
(11-16-2013 12:26 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote: Jackie's last line in the "Killing Kennedy" docudrama on Nat Geo was the same quote you put, Heath. Lindsey and I just watched Killing Kennedy yesterday and thought it was well done.
I enjoyed it, too, but thought they tried to squeeze too much into the time allowed. It was well done, though.
Some other interesting info that I learned:
- unlike the Lincoln relics on display at Ford's all of the JFK relics such as his suit, Oswald's rifle, and Jackie's pink outfit are property of the National Archives and are not allowed to be displayed publicly per agreement with the Kennedy family until the year 2113!
- Jackie's pink hat is not part of the collection because it is owned my an unknown private collector. However, our own Jim Garrett knows who owns it and how she acquired it (it was a gift from Jackie if memory serves) but he is tight lipped about it.
- the last thing JFK ever signed was his name on a newspaper for a maid at the Hotel Texas that morning.
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - Linda Anderson - 11-16-2013 02:18 PM
(11-16-2013 01:55 PM)Rhatkinson Wrote: Some other interesting info that I learned:
- unlike the Lincoln relics on display at Ford's all of the JFK relics such as his suit, Oswald's rifle, and Jackie's pink outfit are property of the National Archives and are not allowed to be displayed publicly per agreement with the Kennedy family until the year 2113!
According to the New York Times article on Jackie's pink suit, "scholars and researchers who meet special criteria of the archives may view President Kennedy’s clothing and the rifle used by Lee Harvey Oswald. To the best of anyone’s knowledge, access to Mrs. Kennedy’s suit for research purposes has never been granted."
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - Eva Elisabeth - 11-16-2013 06:05 PM
(11-16-2013 10:48 AM)Rhatkinson Wrote: Jackie also put her children's needs over her own, unlike Mary who was too overcome with grief to care for Tad.Yes, obviously she overcame her grief. I wonder what her children felt when she, only five years later, replaced their father by a man (receiving allegedly a $5 million wedding gift for giving up her good name) whose wife had divorced him after discovering his affair to Maria Callas when he had dated her on the yacht named after his daughter. And somehow - as I see it - it doesn't match this wonderful statement:
"...I should have guessed that it would be too much to ask to grow old with him and see our children grow up together."
Well, some children might cope well with their parents' re-marriage, I don't know how the Kennedy children did.
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - Rob Wick - 11-16-2013 06:06 PM
William Manchester wrote about the suit in The Death of a President:
Unknown to her, the clothes Mrs. Kennedy wore into the bright midday glare of Dallas lie in an attic not far from 3017 N Street. In Bethesda that night those closest to her had vowed that from the moment that she shed them she should never see them again. She hasn't. Yet they are still there, in one of two long brown paper cartons thrust between roof rafters. The first is marked "September 12, 1953," the date of her marriage; it contains her wedding gown. The block-printed label on the other is "Worn by Jackie, November 22, 1963." Inside, neatly arranged, are the pink wool suit, the black shirt, the low-heeled shoes, and, wrapped in a white towel, the stockings. Were the box to be opened by an intruder from some land so remote that the name, the date, and photographs of the ensemble had not been published and republished until they had been graven upon his memory, he might conclude that these were merely stylish garments which had passed out of fashion and which, because they were associated with some pleasant occasion, had not been discarded.
If the trespasser looked closer, however, he would be momentarily baffled. The memento of a happy time would be cleaned before storing. Obviously this costume has not been. There are ugly splotches along the front and hem of the skirt. The handbag's leather and the inside of each shoe are caked dark red. And the stockings are quite odd. Once the same substance streaked them in mad scribbly patterns, but time and the sheerness of the fabric have altered it. The rusty clots have flaked off; they lie in tiny brittle grains on the nap of the towel. Examining them closely, the intruder would see his error. This clothing, he would perceive, had not been kept out of sentiment. He would realize that it had been worn by a slender young woman who had met with some dreadful accident. he might ponder whether she had survived. he might even wonder who had been to blame. (pgs. 646-7)
Of course, that was before they were moved to the National Archives. Interestingly, the Chanel suit is a knockoff, made in New York City so she could wear French clothing but still buy American.
Best
Rob
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - Linda Anderson - 11-16-2013 06:48 PM
(11-16-2013 06:05 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(11-16-2013 10:48 AM)Rhatkinson Wrote: Jackie also put her children's needs over her own, unlike Mary who was too overcome with grief to care for Tad.Yes, obviously she overcame her grief. I wonder what her children felt when she, only five years later, replaced their father by a man (receiving allegedly a $5 million wedding gift for giving up her good name) whose wife had divorced him after discovering his affair to Maria Callas when he had dated her on the yacht named after his daughter. And somehow - as I see it - it doesn't match this wonderful statement:
"...I should have guessed that it would be too much to ask to grow old with him and see our children grow up together."
Well, some children might cope well with their parents' re-marriage, I don't know how the Kennedy children did.
I don't know how the Kennedy children coped with their mother's remarriage but Jackie must have been traumatized by her brother-in-law Bobby's murder in June 1968.
Wikipedia has an article on Jackie which references a New York Times article of July 19, 1999 - "John F. Kennedy, Jr. Heir to a Powerful Dynasty."
"He attended a Catholic elementary school and was so rambunctious that Secret Service agents gave him the code name Lark. But his mother worried about her children's safety, especially after Robert F. Kennedy, their uncle, was assassinated in 1968.
'If they're killing Kennedys, then my children are targets,' Jacqueline Kennedy said at the time. 'I want to get out of this country.'
"On Oct. 20, 1968, she married Aristotle Socrates Onassis, a Greek shipping magnate who was 29 years her senior, in part because of his ability to provide the family security."
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/19/us/john-f-kennedy-jr-heir-to-a-formidable-dynasty.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqueline_Kennedy_Onassis
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - J. Beckert - 11-16-2013 07:25 PM
I've heard Jackie Kennedy said that you marry first for love and then for money, but I can't imagine she'd be worried about finances after marrying a Kennedy. Hopefully, she found some happiness. She also was urged to change her suit after the assassination, but refused, stating "I want them to see what they've done."
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - Eva Elisabeth - 11-16-2013 08:03 PM
(11-16-2013 07:25 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: I've heard Jackie Kennedy said that you marry first for love and then for money, but I can't imagine she'd be worried about finances after marrying a Kennedy. Hopefully, she found some happiness.What about the children's happyness (despite safety)? John John said something like "Onassis loved big names, and my mother loved money". That doesn't sound as if he had been happy with his new stepfather.
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - L Verge - 11-16-2013 08:24 PM
Just as I have a soft spot in my heart for Mary Lincoln, I have one for Jackie Kennedy. I think she took on a very large job when she married into the rambunctious and driven Kennedy family and brought a little grace and elegance to the fold. The fact that her sole surviving daughter, Caroline, arrived this week in Japan to become our country's ambassador to this critical ally speaks well of the upbringing that she received, IMO. Her son attracted more press attention, but he seemed to have been following a fairly straight path at the time of his death. Jackie once commented about the necessity to be a good parent, and I think she was. Even the questionable marriage to Onassis was probably driven by her desire to keep her children safe after the murder of Bobby Kennedy. Two assassinations of her husband and brother-in-law - all certainly political in nature and both within five years of each other - must have scared the beejeebies out of her. I would have been looking for a safe haven also.
As for her finding happiness: My personal feeling is that she did that after the death of Onassis when she returned to New York and took a job in the publishing world where her talents in the English language (and others) and intellect could be put to proper use. I also appreciate the work that she did in supporting the arts, and especially historic preservation, during those years. I think she also found the companionship of Maurice Templesman a calming and happy one until her death at a fairly early age. Frankly, I continue to admire the lady.
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - My Name Is Kate - 11-16-2013 08:37 PM
JFK wasn't a particularly faithful husband, was he?
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - J. Beckert - 11-16-2013 09:19 PM
(11-16-2013 08:24 PM)L Verge Wrote: Just as I have a soft spot in my heart for Mary Lincoln, I have one for Jackie Kennedy.
Me too. To me, she personifies dignity and exactly what a First Lady should be.
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - Gene C - 11-17-2013 07:43 AM
(11-16-2013 08:37 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote: JFK wasn't a particularly faithful husband, was he?
No he wasn't
RE: Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy - Rhatkinson - 11-17-2013 08:01 AM
The suit story the Rob quoted from Manchester is interesting. If wish I could recall the story of the pillbox hat that Jim told me. All is remember is thatJackie gave it to someone, which would seem to be at odds with Manchester's claim that she never saw the outfit again after she removed it.
If you have not read it, Jim Bishop's book, "The Day Kennedy was Shot" is excellent. I read it after reading his equally good book on Lincoln. There is a chilling story in the book where JFK invited Bishop to profile him for a magazine after reading his book on Lincoln. JFK remarked to Bishop that he believed, as Lincoln did, that if a man was willing to give his life to take the President's there was nothing anyone could do to stop him.