New Eyewitness Account? - Printable Version

New Eyewitness Account? - Printable Version

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RE: New Eyewitness Account? - kerry - 05-30-2018 05:54 PM

(05-30-2018 03:59 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(05-29-2018 04:05 PM)Steve Wrote: Maybe Clara was misremembering Forbes bringing the dispatch from S. P. Hanscom to the President?

This seems possible, but if Reck is correct, the dispatch was delivered during the third act; thus the timing between visits would not fit with what Clara stated.

(05-29-2018 11:30 PM)kerry Wrote: Some witnesses indicated Booth was pacing back and forth near the box, so he may have.

Yes, very true. But the eyewitnesses stated Forbes only let Booth pass into the box itself one time. I am assuming Clara meant Booth came to door #8 which remained open during the play. Door #8 was at the end of the passageway behind the State Box. (Someone may want to correct me if I am incorrect on this --> I do not think Clara Harris, from her seat, could see someone standing right in front of the door to the passageway.)

I don't think her testimony indicates that she necessarily saw Booth, but that someone in or around the box did, and told her about it.

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - Steve - 06-02-2018 11:29 PM

(05-21-2018 10:38 PM)kerry Wrote: Taft, hearing a call for a surgeon, made himself known, and was pulled up by people in the box. I am not sure if he came in before the door was unblocked, or if he just did not know how to access the door. According to a 1909 interview with Taft, "Assistant Surgeon Charles A. Dale of the navy was already in the box, and Dr. Taft says that Dale’s quick decision in having the dying president laid flat on the floor of the box prevented his expiring of syncope within the first few minutes." So I'm not sure how this fits in with the Loring story, but maybe Dale ordered Loring and Flood to help. Taft's 1865 account says when he arrived Leale and King had it under control, and several other men were present.

Kerry,
Do you have a reference or a link for this 1909 interview of Dr. Taft? Because of the similarity of pronunciation of "Dale" to "Leale" (or possibly some sloppy handwriting where the "L" and "e" were smooshed together into something that resembled a "D"), I'm assuming the surname is some sort of misprint. But the navy surgeon bit is interesting when compared to Clara Harris' affidavit.

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - L Verge - 06-03-2018 01:06 PM

I think we're swatting at mosquitoes here in trying to decipher so-called eyewitness accounts - that then get translated differently from one person to the other. Remember the old game of "Gossip?"

Mike Kauffman is an excellent person to explain changing eyewitness accounts and used to give talks on it. In fact, he was the inspiration for Tim Good's book on the Lincoln assassination accounts. Tim was a NPS Ranger and heard Mike give this talk at Ford's (I think there). Tim was working on a Master's degree and needed a thesis. The thesis became the book.

Getting back to Mike: He once told me about his experience as an eyewitness. I believe he was then working for CNN as a cameraman and was assigned some notable event in D.C. to cover. I can't remember what the incident was that occurred, but Mike had his camera rolling as he witnessed it. He later gave his account of what HE saw and then rolled the FILM coverage of what the camera saw. There were quite a few differences...

P.S. I would never count Clara Harris as a totally reliable eyewitness. Too much trauma for her brain to absorb and still give a clear picture of what went on. And, I agree with Kerry that her position in the Presidential Box would have made it difficult for her to know what was going on at the rear of the box - either when the mystery man checked earlier (if such a thing occurred) or when Booth first entered

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - RJNorton - 06-03-2018 02:30 PM

(06-03-2018 01:06 PM)L Verge Wrote: Mike Kauffman is an excellent person to explain changing eyewitness accounts and used to give talks on it.

Laurie, do you happen to know if Mike has an opinion on the differences between Dr. Leale's 1865 reports and his 1909 address. I ask because I once received a lengthy email from a medical doctor who quite adamantly doubted Dr. Leale applied mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to the stricken President.

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - kerry - 06-03-2018 02:57 PM

(06-02-2018 11:29 PM)Steve Wrote:
(05-21-2018 10:38 PM)kerry Wrote: Taft, hearing a call for a surgeon, made himself known, and was pulled up by people in the box. I am not sure if he came in before the door was unblocked, or if he just did not know how to access the door. According to a 1909 interview with Taft, "Assistant Surgeon Charles A. Dale of the navy was already in the box, and Dr. Taft says that Dale’s quick decision in having the dying president laid flat on the floor of the box prevented his expiring of syncope within the first few minutes." So I'm not sure how this fits in with the Loring story, but maybe Dale ordered Loring and Flood to help. Taft's 1865 account says when he arrived Leale and King had it under control, and several other men were present.

Kerry,
Do you have a reference or a link for this 1909 interview of Dr. Taft? Because of the similarity of pronunciation of "Dale" to "Leale" (or possibly some sloppy handwriting where the "L" and "e" were smooshed together into something that resembled a "D"), I'm assuming the surname is some sort of misprint. But the navy surgeon bit is interesting when compared to Clara Harris' affidavit.

I think you are right about 'Dale' being a misheard version of 'Leale.'

On May 11, 1909, the Lincoln Nebraska State Journal did a story on Lincoln’s death, interviewing Dr. Taft. That's where it comes from.

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - L Verge - 06-03-2018 05:56 PM

(06-03-2018 02:30 PM)RJNorton Wrote:
(06-03-2018 01:06 PM)L Verge Wrote: Mike Kauffman is an excellent person to explain changing eyewitness accounts and used to give talks on it.

Laurie, do you happen to know if Mike has an opinion on the differences between Dr. Leale's 1865 reports and his 1909 address. I ask because I once received a lengthy email from a medical doctor who quite adamantly doubted Dr. Leale applied mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to the stricken President.

I am quite sure that Mike has an opinion on Leale's two accounts, but (if I ever heard them) I don't remember.

I have heard others challenge the "mouth-to-mouth" report also. For some reason, I think Blaine Houmes may have spoken on this in one of his speeches at a Surratt conference, but I may be mistaken...

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - Ernesto - 06-03-2018 07:00 PM

(06-03-2018 05:56 PM)L Verge Wrote:
(06-03-2018 02:30 PM)RJNorton Wrote:
(06-03-2018 01:06 PM)L Verge Wrote: Mike Kauffman is an excellent person to explain changing eyewitness accounts and used to give talks on it.

Laurie, do you happen to know if Mike has an opinion on the differences between Dr. Leale's 1865 reports and his 1909 address. I ask because I once received a lengthy email from a medical doctor who quite adamantly doubted Dr. Leale applied mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to the stricken President.

I am quite sure that Mike has an opinion on Leale's two accounts, but (if I ever heard them) I don't remember.

I have heard others challenge the "mouth-to-mouth" report also. For some reason, I think Blaine Houmes may have spoken on this in one of his speeches at a Surratt conference, but I may be mistaken...

I discussed the difference in Leale's various accounts in depth in my "Finger in Lincoln's Brain." They are quite different. the mouth to mouth and heart massage is unlikely since they were not standard procedures in 1865; Leale also left out sticking his pinkie in lincoln's brain in the 1909 version since by then germ theory was well established.

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - RJNorton - 06-05-2018 04:19 AM

Thanks to Steve for sending these articles. The first is a New York Times printing of the affidavits of Maj. Rathbone and Clara Harris, as well as a written account by Harry Hawk from page 3 of the April 23, 1865 edition. The second is a May 11, 1909 Nebraska State Journal article (page 8) which Kerry was describing of Taft's account of the assassination. This is the article in which Dr. Leale is referred to as "Dale."

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - RJNorton - 06-05-2018 04:29 AM

Harry Hawk says he ran off the stage when Booth was coming at him because he thought he was the one Booth was going to attack. I have a vague memory of once reading this was because both Hawk and Booth were dating the same woman. It is not a clear memory. Does anyone know specifically why Hawk felt Booth was after him with the knife?

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - Tom Bogar - 06-05-2018 07:35 AM

(06-05-2018 04:29 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Harry Hawk says he ran off the stage when Booth was coming at him because he thought he was the one Booth was going to attack. I have a vague memory of once reading this was because both Hawk and Booth were dating the same woman. It is not a clear memory. Does anyone know specifically why Hawk felt Booth was after him with the knife?

The best source for Hawk's running off the stage in fear (from thinking Booth was going to kill him over seeing one of Booth's women) is Kate Evans, with whom (along with her husband Johnny) Hawk was staying while in Washington. See New York Dramatic Mirror 10/10/1896 and 2/5/1905, and Philadelphia Inquirer 10/4/1896.

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - RJNorton - 06-05-2018 01:11 PM

Thanks, Tom.

And thanks to Steve for sending the Philadelphia Inquirer article that Tom cited:

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - Steve - 06-05-2018 03:02 PM

I found this 11 February 1926 Chicago Daily News interview of Kathryn Evans:

https://archive.org/stream/assassinationof00linc#page/n7/mode/2up

In the interview, Evans said that many years earlier she went to perform to perform in Springfield and saw the piece of Laura Keene' dress (mentioned earlier in this thread) on display there. She also claims that the blood on the dress was actually Maj. Rathbone's and not Lincoln's.

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - L Verge - 06-05-2018 03:10 PM

The more I think about the bloody scrap of dress, the more I believe it was in the Springfield home. The Victorians were very much into mourning and remembrance of loved ones and great ones (for many years after their death). Depending on one's religion, sacred relics were prized also. Such a bloody piece of cloth might well be considered a relic if thought to carry Lincoln's blood - or even Rathbone's as a hero who tried to stop the assassin.

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - RJNorton - 06-05-2018 05:12 PM

Thank you to Steve for sending this 1914 interview with Kathryn Evans. It is from the February 8, 1914, edition of the Chicago Inter-Ocean (pages 25-26).

I think it's a fascinating interview, and large parts of it seem quite accurate to me. But I still have a few questions:

1. Abraham Lincoln was carried to the Petersen House on a shutter? I think I have read this in some sources but not others.

2. Peanut John was sent to the Dry Tortugas along with Spangler and the others?

3. Ford's Theatre collapsed twice? I knew about the one in 1893, but was there another?

4. Mary Surratt was an angel of mercy?

[Image: evans150.jpg]

RE: New Eyewitness Account? - L Verge - 06-05-2018 06:22 PM

(06-05-2018 05:12 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Thank you to Steve for sending this 1914 interview with Kathryn Evans. It is from the February 8, 1914, edition of the Chicago Inter-Ocean (pages 25-26).

I think it's a fascinating interview, and large parts of it seem quite accurate to me. But I still have a few questions:

1. Abraham Lincoln was carried to the Petersen House on a shutter? I think I have read this in some sources but not others.

2. Peanut John was sent to the Dry Tortugas along with Spangler and the others?

3. Ford's Theatre collapsed twice? I knew about the one in 1893, but was there another?

4. Mary Surratt was an angel of mercy?

I am past the age of being able to read the first page of this article, but I have seen reference to the shutter being used as a litter also, but I don't believe it was in a reputable source.

We know that she is incorrect about Peanut.

I only remember one collapse of Ford's Theatre.

I am only guessing that the angel of mercy came from the book (Old Capitol Prison and Its Inmates) that I mentioned earlier by Virginia Lomax in which she describes Mary comforting a grieving mother who has arrived to be with her dying son at the Old Capitol. Mary stays with the mother and is allowed to accompany her and the son's body to its burial. I tend to doubt that last part...